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Discussion Starter #1
My 16 yr old oversized Toy JJ passed away and I'm looking for another male large toy or small miniature puppy or young adult for a companion. Is this even possible with the overwhelming demand currently for dogs.
Thank you
 

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Peggy Sue, Standard Poodle Born May 2019
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I’m so sorry to hear about JJ.

Yes, there’s high covid-related demand for puppies, but it’s not impossible. Members who not that long ago felt like they’d be on a waitlist forever are now enjoying their new baby poodles. :)

Have you checked out any of the breeders in this thread? Where are you located?

 

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I’m so sorry to hear about JJ.

Yes, there’s high covid-related demand for puppies, but it’s not impossible. Members who not that long ago felt like they’d be on a waitlist forever are now enjoying their new baby poodles. :)

Have you checked out any of the breeders in this thread? Where are you located?

I am on Long Island, NY
Thank you
 

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It's so very hard to say goodbye and the desire to feel that companionship again is completely understandable.

PTP gave you the link to the List and not knowing your experience in vetting breeders, especially with the changes over the last years, I'll add some more info.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know that you're open to an older pup or young adult.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to $3000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
On this page...Breeder Referral ContactsPCA National Breeder Members Lists Breeder Referral Contacts Breeder referral West of the Mississippi: Mary OlundPhone: (415) 457-4648Email: [email protected] calls from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time Breeder referral East of the...
poodleclubofamerica.org
poodleclubofamerica.org



As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, I'll drop my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.

Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time :)

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It's so very hard to say goodbye and the desire to feel that companionship again is completely understandable.

PTP gave you the link to the List and not knowing your experience in vetting breeders, especially with the changes over the last years, I'll add some more info.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know that you're open to an older pup or young adult.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to $3000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
On this page...Breeder Referral ContactsPCA National Breeder Members Lists Breeder Referral Contacts Breeder referral West of the Mississippi: Mary OlundPhone: (415) 457-4648Email: [email protected] calls from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time Breeder referral East of the...
poodleclubofamerica.org
poodleclubofamerica.org



As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, I'll drop my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.

Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time :)

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
Thank you Rose n Poos,
I couldn't agree more with all those points. My last 2 poodles had the specific tests for their breed and had excellent temperaments and good health, but, back in those days, I was able to stop in and observe the dame and puppies before selecting. Now, putting a deposit on a preselected puppy by the breeder is a big leap of faith.
 

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You can join the "Uncensored Opinions Of Poodle Breeders (Official)" facebook group and ask.
 

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Now, putting a deposit on a preselected puppy by the breeder is a big leap of faith.
Even with Covid restrictions many breeders are still finding ways for the potential new families to meet in person or at least view the puppies, the dams (maybe sire if on site), view the living environment, and there should be enough communication between you and the breeder for them to understand what you're looking for in a puppy and select on your behalf since they're with those pups from birth.

I do understand feeling that it is a leap of faith, but it really is based on an open exchange of information.

Here's an explanation from a breeder who's been thru both sides of this:
from https://rufflyspeaking.net/

"5. PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT TO CHOOSE YOUR PUPPY. This one drives puppy buyers CRAZY. I know this, trust me. I have a lot of sympathy because I’ve been there. But the fact is that when you come into my house and look at the eight-week-old puppies and one comes up and tugs on your pant leg and you look at me, enraptured, and say “THIS IS IT! He chose ME,” I’ve been looking at people coming into the house all week, and every single time this same puppy has come up and tugged at them and every single one of them have said to me “THIS IS IT!”

What you are seeing is not reality. You are seeing the most outgoing puppy, or you’ve fallen in love with the one that has the most white, or the one that has a different look from the rest of the litter (when I had one blue girl puppy in a litter of black boys, every human that came in the house wanted her; when I had one black girl puppy in a litter of blue boys everyone kept talking about how much they loved HER), or the one that’s been (accidentally) featured the most in the pictures I’ve posted. Or, sometimes, you have a very good instinctive eye and you’re picking the puppy that’s the best put together of the litter. And that puppy, of course, is mine, and you’re going to have to pry him out of my cold dead hands.

My responsibility is not to make you happy. And that, dear friends, is why I am posting this now, and not when I have a bunch of actual puppy buyers around. But it’s the truth.

My responsibility is to the BREED first. That’s why my first priority in placing puppies is the show owners, because they are the ones that will (if all goes well) use this dog to keep the breed going. It’s not that I like them better than I like you; it’s that I have to be extremely careful who I place with them so that they can make breeding decisions with the very best genetic material I can hand them.

My second responsibility is to the PUPPY. I will place each puppy where I feel that it has the best chance of success and the optimal environment to thrive.

So while I do care about you, and I will try to take your preferences into account, do not expect to walk into my living room and put your hand in the box and pick whatever puppy you want. And do not expect to be given priority pick because you contacted me first; conversely, do not expect that because you came along late you somehow won’t get a good puppy. Sometimes the person who calls me when the puppies are seven and a half weeks old ends up with what I’d consider the “pick” for various reasons (sometimes because somebody called me up and said they’d gotten a puppy from someone else; see rule 4 above).

I am going to try to do my absolute best to match puppies to owners as objectively as I can, not according to who called first.

When I was waiting for Clue, I think I initially called Betty Ann six months before she was born. I waited through two other litters, where Betty Ann thought she might have something for me but then in the end told me no. Then I waited until 8 weeks when she thought this one might really be the one, and then another two weeks until she made her final picks and sent me a puppy. I was about ready to vomit with the tension. I UNDERSTAND. But the rewards of waiting and being matched with the right puppy are greater than any frustration with having to sit with an empty couch for a few more months.

6) ONCE YOU GET YOUR PUPPY, THERE WILL ONLY BE THAT PUPPY IN THE WHOLE WORLD.
If you’ve been sitting around with your fingers crossed saying “Please, Molly, please, Molly, I only love Molly,” and I say “I really think Moe is the one for you,” you’re probably going to feel disappointed. But take Moe and go sit on the couch, and put your finger in her mouth, and realize that she has a really cool white toe on one foot but none of the other feet have white toes, and let her try to find a treat in your pocket, and I guarantee you by the time you’re five minutes out of my driveway Moe will be YOUR puppy. And a year later you may remember that you thought Molly was so pretty, but Moe… well, Moe could practically run the Pentagon she’s so smart, and her face turned out MUCH more beautiful than Molly’s did. And so on.

And on waitlists and deposits:

There seem to be two main ways that breeders handle wait lists and deposits.

To some breeders the two are essentially the same. The new family and the breeder have had back and forth communications, vetted each other (an application also may or may not be required), and there is agreement between all parties. The good faith deposit is placed to hold a suitable puppy but there may not yet be puppies on the ground.

The other way is to follow the same procedures listed above but the waitlist and deposit are treated separately. The waitlist is the breeders way of keeping track of who wants what in a puppy, who's ready for a puppy, but the deposit is not required until puppies are on the ground.

There is a third way that can happen and that's serendipity. Possibly the new family and breeder have already gone thru this process with a prior dog and both feel comfortable with each other. Possibly the new family and breeder are introduced by someone known to each other so they feel comfortable. Waitlists and deposits may not figure in at all, puppies may be on the ground or planned, but the vetting either has been done before or is being vouched for.

Pros and cons to each way but that is between the breeder and the new family.

These are some examples of how a quality breeder handles deposits:

Example A

"Please be as thorough as possible when answering. Your answers help me choose which pup in the litter will be best suited to you and your family. Complete answers go a long way towards matching the best pups for the best families. Filling out the application is not a guarantee of approval. I require a $500 deposit to hold a puppy for approved families. If a litter does not result from a breeding then I will refund your deposit. Your deposit is not refundable in the event that you change your mind, purchase a pup from another breeder, etc. If you wish to be added to my waiting list complete the puppy application. Once approved you may send me a $500 deposit. Families who have been approved and send deposits are given first priority."

Example B

"Step 2: Waiting List

The "waiting list" is a document filled with dozens of potential families for our future puppies
. They range in colour preferences, family dynamics, time frames for bringing home a puppy, etc. When we are planning a litter, I will go through the waiting list and contact one family at a time until I find a few homes that are prepared for a new puppy. This is not necessarily a "first come, first serve" basis, but suitable families who have been waiting for 1 year will take priority over suitable families who have been waiting for 3 weeks. The order in which potential owners are contacted entirely depends on what we are expecting in the litter. If the parents of the litter are high energy and known for having more rambunctious puppies, we will be contacting more active and experienced homes. If the parents are mellow and easy-going dogs, we might contact the quieter, less active dog owners on our list.

Step 3: Litter Announcements

Litter announcements are posted on our social media pages, "Puppies" page of our website, and emailed to potential puppy owners (previously contacted and corresponded with before the litter was born). After this announcement, we will maintain contact and provide puppy updates while personalities begin to develop.
Step 4: Matching Puppies to Families

Once the puppies are 4+ weeks old, we will evaluate temperaments and conformation, and decide whether we want to keep back a puppy to show. We typically have input as to which puppy will do best with which family, but the information gathered from 4-6 weeks old will confirm that. We will be able to tell which puppies are shy, high-drive, patient, etc. When possible, we encourage the potential owners to meet the puppy/puppies of our recommendation to ensure it will be a good fit.

Step 5: The Contract

Before taking reservations on any puppies, each potential owner will be emailed a copy of our contract of sa
le. This document outlines our requirements for spaying/neutering, taking proper care of the dog, and an agreement that the dog will be returned to us if the owners can no longer keep him/her. This contract is to ensure that each party knows their responsibilities, and that the dog will be cared for during their entire life. Any questions or concerns regarding the contract should be addressed before the puppy is reserved.
Step 6: Reservation Fees (Deposits)

A non-refundable fee of $500 is required to reserve a puppy, and goes towards the final purchase price. This secures the puppy to their family until pick-up day.
We will then arrange a date and time for pick-up. This is the time to start purchasing supplies, puppy-proofing your household, and brushing up on dog training and behaviour."



Features in common:

There is a planned litter. Each parent has been health tested and then matched to each other for (hopefully) specific results in the litter such as temperament and drive.

The deposit is a good faith guarantee on both sides. The first states that the deposit will be refunded if there is no pregnancy and therefore no puppies. It would not be refunded because the buyer simply changed their mind.

The second breeder requires the non refundable deposit but not til after the puppies are on the ground.

With these types of breeders, they've not only made an investment in all their dogs, they've made an investment in you, the buyer who they've also carefully selected.


Examples of breeders that I'd run from:
  • Buyer understands that a deposit of $500.00 is required to place a puppy on hold.
  • Buyer understands the deposit is non-refundable.
  • Puppy must be paid in full before it will be released or shipped to the Buyer. If payment on the puppy has not been made in full by the
    shipping date, or the set receiving date, the Buyer will then forfeit his/her deposit, and any claims on the puppy.
  • Payment can be made by:
    • Personal checks are accepted for payment of a puppy. Buyer understands that by paying with a personal check, the puppy will not be released or shipped until the check has cleared the bank.
    • Paypal, Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express. These payment options will incur an extra 3.5% to cover the bank transaction fee charged by the credit card company (PAYPAL) or independent payment processor. Please contact seller with appropriate information."
"Deposits:
WE DO NOT ACCEPT DEPOSITS ON ANY PUPPY 6 WEEKS OLD OR OLDER. AT 6 WEEKS OLD ONLY PAYMENTS IN FULL WILL BE ACCEPTED. ALL PUPPIES MUST BE PAID FOR IN FULL ON OR BEFORE THE DAY THE PUPPY TURN 6 WEEKS OLD TO HOLD THEM UNTIL THEY ARE 8 WEEKS OLD AND THEY ARE PICKED UP, SHIPPED OR DELIVERED.
When you have decided to purchase your new Standard Poodle puppy from __, prior to the date the puppy turns 6 weeks old you will need to pay:
• $250.00 non-refundable deposit but transferable for Limited Registration on our male or female pups
• $500.00 or $1000.00 for Unlimited Registration on our male or female pups (The $1000.00 deposit price is for our ____)
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account. Send your PayPal payments to ____
• Fill out the contract. Please follow the directions carefully at the top of the contract.
Payment of Balance and Payment in Full:
• If you have put a deposit down on a puppy, PAYMENT IN FULL , minus the deposit amount, and including any shipping charges, is due on or before the day your puppy turns 6 weeks old. If we are delivering your puppy to you in person, you will be required to pay the delivery fee in cash when the puppy exchanges hands. If you are using our flight nanny services all fee must be paid in advance except the $250 flight nanny fee that will be paid in cash directly to the flight nanny.
• If you are purchasing a PUPPY that is 6 weeks old or older and have not previously put down a deposit, PAYMENT IN FULL is required at the time of the commitment to purchase.
• WE DO NOT ACCEPT CHECKS FOR BALANCES OR PAYMENTS IN FULL.
• If you are visiting ___ and picking out, paying for and taking home a puppy all in the same day we only accept Cash or Credit/Debit Card.
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account.
• Send your PayPal payments to __
• If you are purchasing a LIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out the Limited contract
If you are purchasing an UNLIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out Unlimited contract"


This all sounds reasonable until you see what is and isn't mentioned. What is mentioned: plenty of talk about payment and nothing else.

No talk of waitlist, no talk of alternatives, no talk of planned litters, planned results, puppies matched to owners needs...just send the money.
 

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It's certainly a tough year. My standard's breeder, who is within driving distance of both New York and Boston, is reserved into 2022 at this point. You might have some luck further afield or being flexible in your requirements. Gooddog.com lists some breeders with upcoming miniature litters in the Carolinas.
 

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My 16 yr old oversized Toy JJ passed away and I'm looking for another male large toy or small miniature puppy or young adult for a companion. Is this even possible with the overwhelming demand currently for dogs.
Thank you
you could check out poodlesonline.com. a mini breeder in florida has a litter listed. poodlesonline lists breeders who do genetic health testing.
 
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