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Discussion Starter #1
I was browsing through a website of a breeder in my area last night and the longer I read, the more I found myself shaking my head and kinda wondering if these people were for real! any thoughts? Here are some examples of things that kinda made me go, "huh?"

"Born on our leather sofa, right in the comfort of our living room, our dogs are socialized from day one..." that's kinda gross

"Our poodles are bred to our personal standards. We do not breed for what is popular today, rather for what we think are the best qualities of the standard poodle--and we always will." wow, who made them the experts?! and what about breed standard?

"Our puppies are given constant supervision 24 hours a day for the first 3 weeks of their life." kinda hard to believe isn't it? they currently have puppies from 4 or 5 different litters! that's a lot of pups to be watching 24/7

"A puppy trained not to bark, bite too hard, or jump up". whatever!?


"A puppy handled every 15 minutes 7 days a week for the first 3 weeks of their life." SERIOUSLY! do people actually believe this crap?! wow

There is no mention (that I could find) about any health testing on their breeding stock. Big red flag in my opinion. Also, they don't groom puppies faces prior to sending them home, but they do perform spay and neuter BEFORE pups go home (Pediatric spay/neuter) ...
what's ironic to me as well, is that the TV show "Animal Planet" was there to film a documentary a few months ago... so the general public is being told these are good people to get a puppy from (with NO Health testing!)
Their Red Standards are priced at $2600. This is a pet quality puppy!
Nuts if you ask me :crazy:
 

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You must be talking about Pendragon Poodles in regards to price. The darker the red the higher the value since that is what most people are demanding a dark red puppy. Typically the request is for "a Dark Red Female." If people are willing to buy then that's the going rate.

As for pediatric Spay/Neuter, that ensures that puppy is not going to be used in any breeding program, you buy it as a pet why not have the deed done so you don't have to pay for it in the next few months yourself. That's a several hundred dollar expense that you won't have to pay for thus you can put that money in getting a better quality pet. Some problems with just supplying a Limited Registration;
1. people that breed "oodles" don't' care about limited registration
2. people that breed "purebred no papers" do not care about limited registration
3. people use papers from another poodle to "paper" the puppy they bought from you will not care about papers. YES, it happens!
It helps prevent the brokers out there from obtaining a pup used in designer breeding or backyard breeding. I'm sure you've seen those type of horrors on TV and these forums. Would you care to see Rogan babies all over your local area mixed bred so you can't sell your Quality poodles? Cause you know that people will look at the price of a dog. They have a particular price point they won't pay over. What would you tell the potential customer that wants to stud your Red poodle to their Lab or another breed? It helps keep the supply and demand equal too. If everyone out there had the capability to breed then you'd get Poodles all over of low quality health and more would be seen in shelters.

As for grooming the puppies faces before they go home, that is a choice. I prefer to do it and love the clean shaved face but then you have the requests to keep the fluffy face. My Husband loves the cute poodle puppy faces, he rather not have their faces shaved down then they look like adults to fast. Also, you have to work and train those little squiggly puppies to get them groomed. Some are more easier then others. Also, more people are asking for undocked tails. Someone from England correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is now out-lawed in England unless you can show proof that this will be a working dog. So there is choices for people. Exactly what we the people ask for; the freedom to choose what we want. We can't protect all the gullible or naive people from making the wrong choice in breeding or buying the "right" poodle.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
thestars, I have a lot of respect for you and the knowledge you have in the poodle world! I am so completely out of my league here, but I'll give it a shot :)

my biggest concern is the lack of adherence to breed standard. doesn't this bother you just a touch? I'm new to this whole poodle thing, so maybe I'm out of line, but still, I just think this could really cause a lot of problems down the road. And no health testing?
I sent her an email asking specifically about what tests they run, and her response was to call her and we could talk about it! maybe there are tests they run and she wanted to explain that to me in more detail, but why not just answer my question, makes me wonder.

pediatric Spay/Neuter - from what I know, this can affect proper growth and is not ideal for the health of the puppy. I realize this prevents people from breeding doodles and unregistered litters etc, but should the health of the dog really be compromised to accomplish this?

What would you tell the potential customer that wants to stud your Red poodle to their Lab or another breed? - I would tell them NO, it's not an option.

Also, you have to work and train those little squiggly puppies to get them groomed. - isn't this a good reason to start early, make it a touch easier on the new owners? I guess I just feel that they can take the time and energy to spay/neuter then certainly they could take the time to get them used to clippers and being handled for grooming.

I'm a big fan of un-docked tails :)

I'm going to stop there, I need to learn to keep my mouth shut, I don't want to step on toes ... I'm really just trying to learn as much as I can... and what I saw here was just a little surprising to me, that's all...
 

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thestars, I have a lot of respect for you and the knowledge you have in the poodle world! I am so completely out of my league here, but I'll give it a shot :)

my biggest concern is the lack of adherence to breed standard. doesn't this bother you just a touch? I'm new to this whole poodle thing, so maybe I'm out of line, but still, I just think this could really cause a lot of problems down the road. And no health testing?
I sent her an email asking specifically about what tests they run, and her response was to call her and we could talk about it! maybe there are tests they run and she wanted to explain that to me in more detail, but why not just answer my question, makes me wonder. I was not defending Pendragon nor any breeder. A responsible breeder should be providing health testing and should have a goal of breeding to the standard. Now it's their choice to publish the testing. Unethical people have used other peoples results as there own too. It's not that hard with computers these days. There are many tests and maybe some of her stock is clear by parentage. It does appear fishy but If you are really interested you should have called.

pediatric Spay/Neuter - from what I know, this can affect proper growth and is not ideal for the health of the puppy. I realize this prevents people from breeding doodles and unregistered litters etc, but should the health of the dog really be compromised to accomplish this? All I can say is that is endorsed by the American Veterinary Medical Association and MANY others. If all these major organizations and studies support it and These doctors are the ones whom are knowledgeable in the health of our animals then I trust their judgment. http://earlyspayneuter.blogspot.com/
http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/PedSpayNeuter.htm http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedSNVetJournals%5B1%5D.pdf

What would you tell the potential customer that wants to stud your Red poodle to their Lab or another breed? - I would tell them NO, it's not an option. Good! Stick to your goals and learn what you need to to pass on good genetics in the breed. If for any moment you can't be committed then spay or neuter. Puppies change so much...the quiet little puppy can become the raging monster.

Also, you have to work and train those little squiggly puppies to get them groomed. - isn't this a good reason to start early, make it a touch easier on the new owners? I guess I just feel that they can take the time and energy to spay/neuter then certainly they could take the time to get them used to clippers and being handled for grooming. You haven't seen the little kids cry yet that you "wrecked" their puppy! As I said I prefer to do it and get them trained however their are a lot of pet people who want their little fluffy dog. Of course you can still take care of the pads and butt to keep messes down. I wouldn't consider this as anything but the choice of that particular breeder.

I'm a big fan of un-docked tails :) Until un-docked or dew claws are acceptable by the major clubs and in shows then a breeder who would like their prized and well bred dogs should have that opportunity to show like the others.

I'm going to stop there, I need to learn to keep my mouth shut, I don't want to step on toes ... I'm really just trying to learn as much as I can... and what I saw here was just a little surprising to me, that's all...
Never stop learning nor don't keep your mouth shut, if people don't speak up then change will never happen. If these particular breeders see and hear what others have to say then they may change their ways and others wanting to learn about the breed may not benefit from learning. Just be careful of defamatory remarks they can be used against you in a court of law. They should also have the opportunity to defend what they say or do.:dog:
 

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I'm a big fan of un-docked tails :)
Sometimes breeders dock not because it's their own personal preference but because of what the public demand is.
By this I mean... I know in the doberman world a lot of breeders crop and dock their dogs because if an owner can no longer keep the doberman studies show that people would rather adopt a cropped and docked dog before they adopt a dog that is all natural. Thus a cropped and docked dog has a better chance at being rehomed than a dog that isn't.
 

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LOL Born on leather sofa got me! My grandpa's girlfriend's Chi had her pups in the middle of the night in the bed with THEM...now that is gross, yuck!:heh:
 

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Heather,

You didn't step on anyone's toes and you shouldn't keep your mouth shut. I am not sure who the breeder is, but if they breed their super expensive puppies without health testing them, I would run and fast!!! I also don't get breeding to their own standard.....I can't believe people actually fall for that!
 

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Sometimes breeders dock not because it's their own personal preference but because of what the public demand is.
By this I mean... I know in the doberman world a lot of breeders crop and dock their dogs because if an owner can no longer keep the doberman studies show that people would rather adopt a cropped and docked dog before they adopt a dog that is all natural. Thus a cropped and docked dog has a better chance at being rehomed than a dog that isn't.
Not to go off in another direction but thats kind of a cop out if you ask me. The real reason they won't go natural is because the ears will rose and the tails will curl up over the back ;) thus looking nothing like a Dobie.

Anyway there are a lot of "breeder" out there who will do and say anything to try and doop people into buying a puppy.
 

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Not to go off in another direction but thats kind of a cop out if you ask me. The real reason they won't go natural is because the ears will rose and the tails will curl up over the back ;) thus looking nothing like a Dobie.

Anyway there are a lot of "breeder" out there who will do and say anything to try and doop people into buying a puppy.
Actually, if bred correctly the ears should fall the same than a beagle's, and this information do not come from breeders but from shelters and doberman rescues.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6nHZT6hAyoc/R158HSSQCPI/AAAAAAAAAAs/3vM9PcBcRHc/s320/Doberman+Pinscher.jpg

If they want to ban anything it should be circumcision.
 

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In new zealand you can't crop ears, and so all the dobes have floppy ears like a beagles.
We have a dobe and his ears are really big and floppy, no chance of going up lol
 

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Thats just it, American Dobies are not bred with natural ears/tails in mind so they do not always look like they should.
True, they dock & crop too early to even know what they have.

:focus:
Having puppies on their sofa!?!?!?!... sounds creepy to me! I love my dog but that sounds really nasty. I would stay away from someone who breeds and do no health testing what so ever. How do they ensure their line stays healthy/clean from serious genetic diseases?
 

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LOL Born on leather sofa got me! My grandpa's girlfriend's Chi had her pups in the middle of the night in the bed with THEM...now that is gross, yuck!:heh:
Hehe we are expecting pups in a month and my hubby was asking if she could just whelp in our bed since she sleeps there.
I just told him that he would change his mind rather quickly if he knew how messy business it is to whelp puppies :p
 

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Heather....

I have marvelled at all of this myself. I knew who you were speaking of the instant I began reading your post. There are three breeders here in Ontario that I continually shake my heead about, and they are one of them.

When I heard Animal Planet was featuring them on Breeder of the Pack, I contacted the station to tell them that I and a few other breeders I know would boycott their channel. They did get back to me saying they were doing this because one of their staff bought from this breeder and "were just tickled with the annual puppy party" so would go ahead as planned. Well, in my mind, the people buying their pups are paying for the party, because they are charging over $1,000 more than the average red breeder here for their pups, so maybe we should all do that. Charge a ridiculolus fortune for our pups, open up the place one day a year for a BBQ, have a lovely cake made, send home a few goodies for the dogs that attend then bank the extra $900 we got for our pups over and above the cost per family for the party. It made me so angry, when there are breeders who test, breed good quality dogs, do things right and have been in the business for years who could have been featured but weren't. I told AP it was not sour grapes, because I would not have wanted them to do a story on me. I am way to small volume for something like that.

Did you notice on the show that they had a brand new litter of babies in the living room, with camera crews and about 200 people and their dogs clomping all over the house (with their shoes on)? Scared me half to death for the sake of those babies. I would not let one person near those pups with their shoes and unwashed hands let alone the herd that was on the show.

I am with you and do NOT agree with the early spay/neuter program. I believe it alters the appearance of the pups and does not give them the opportunity to be all they can be.

I have heard horror stories about the movement of their puppies, being told a number of them hop as oppposed to the elegant glide we are used to. In speaking with other breeders and vets, I have learned this is usually an indication of hip trouble.

I do not agree with anything they are doing. In my opinion I do not think their dogs are nice looking or well put together, I don't agree with spaying/neutering so young, don't like that people come and go when there are young babies in the home, cannot fathom what they charge for their pups, the no mention of ANY testing is scary.... Thanks for bringing this up Heather. They sit quietly flying under the radar, except for the odd thing like the AP show, and it infuriates me personally that with all of this going on, they would be the one breeder of Standard Poodles who gets featured on such a show. GRRRRRRR!!

I for one would not be remotely impressed being greeted by 15 ungroomed, messy Standard Poodles if I went to visit.

You should not ever be afraid of stepping on someone's toes here. You will find compadres who will agree with you along the way, and those who don't will just have to agree to disagree with your opinion.
 

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Ugh.... So basically they are saying that they don't breed to the Standard?

I just feel bad for Penndragon poodles for having to have a kennel name so similar to them :S
Yah, I'm sure that Kim Bates LOVES the fact that their kennel name is so close to hers.

These folks are on my personal poop list. They sold two puppies at once to a woman here in Boulder. She called me because the dogs were out of control and at 6+ months, she could not get them trained or house broken. She was at her wits end and her husband was pitching a fit. I tried to help her but the truth is that two at once were just too much for her. (This is why breeders should not sell two puppies at the same time!!!!!!)

I recommended that she return one of the dogs or give it up to rescue. In the end, she didn't want to because she had paid close to $3000 per puppy when you figure in travel costs.
 
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