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Discussion Starter #1
Hello!

Quick question for you experts. I have a 5 months old mini poodle and I took him to the groomer for the first time. They were adamant that he is no mini poodle (and said that too when I booked the apt). I was very surprised, said I saw the mom who most definitely was a mini, and also that he had almost reached his adult size (around 6 months right?). They told me he's already bigger than a mini and has huge paws and will grow until he's almost 2.
I measured him at home and he is already 15 inches at the shoulder. He weighs about 12lbs and is VERY SKINNY (we are working on that). My other mini was a fat guy at 15. 15lbs would look great on this one.
I must agree that when I met him I thought his face looked different than my other minis, eyes set more narrow, just different. And even at 3 months his feet were HUGE, way bigger than my adult mini. The groomer said that too. So, I am VERY curious to have your feedback, although I understand it's not a science. And frankly, it doesnt matter to me either way. I would LOVE if he were bigger, it would be a nice surprise. I love him to bits anyway. But I imagine that if he is 15in at 5.5months, he is technically already a standard? Thanks in advance for the input. A very curious mama!
 

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Thank you for the response and link. His parents come from Eriand Poodles, a very reputable breeder. Both parents are minis, genetically tested. I'm a bit perplexed.
Have you told Eriand how big he is? Some miniatures certainly do go oversize. In this past year I have noticed that quite a few of the minis being shown are at least 15 inches and are quite sturdy. That's why I quit showing my mini - she is 14 inches but only 11 lbs, quite dainty. She looked like a toy next to the others being shown.

Whenever the dogs being shown - no matter what breed - are big, many are actually oversize. He is very handsome - I suspect he is just bigger than average. So, yes, he is now considered a standard according to the breed standard, but a knowledgeable poodle person would just say that he is an oversize mini.
 

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If your dog is from mini parents, and is bigger than the AKC standard states, then he still is a mini, but an oversized one. It happens very often.

Both my toy poodles are over 10 inches, which makes them oversized toys, not miniatures. You will need to educate your groomer... :)
 

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Your guy is beautiful! Our brown mini poodle puppy Kiki is huge and doesn't look anything like our dainty 9 lb silver beige mini poodle Willow. Kiki's dad (American and Canadian champion) is an oversize mini/moyen size - 24 lbs, with a stocky build, and Kiki, who also has a stocky build, will most likely be an oversize mini/moyen as well. Her mom (also a champion) is a slighter build. Kiki has a big nose and big paws. She was the firstborn in her litter, and at 16 weeks she probably already weighs about 14 lbs.


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He is lovely, and is just a nice oversized mini. My pup is currently around 14" and 16 lbs! And he feels like his weight is just about ideal. But he is a very fit and solid dog, definitely not too willowy. I think between 6-8 months we have still had some growth. He probably was around 14 lbs at 6 months. But not a whole lot of added height. I would question if your groomer is very experienced with poodles.
 

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Thank you all for the feedback. I will definitely tell the groomer about all this. I find it all fascinating. I am super glad he is on the bigger side since I hesitated between standard and mini! He's a lovely boy with a great temperament. I will be eager to see how much he grows in the next months, but probably not that much more. He will be a nice oversize mini. Happy about that!
 

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If bred as a mini from mini parents then he is a mini, although it seems he will go oversized. Johanna I think what you were noticing when you were showing Zoe is a common trend in minis and toys to push for very close to and hopefully just under on the height limit.


BTW my mom's very small mini is also an Eriand pup.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Have you told Eriand how big he is? Some miniatures certainly do go oversize. In this past year I have noticed that quite a few of the minis being shown are at least 15 inches and are quite sturdy. That's why I quit showing my mini - she is 14 inches but only 11 lbs, quite dainty. She looked like a toy next to the others being shown.

Whenever the dogs being shown - no matter what breed - are big, many are actually oversize. He is very handsome - I suspect he is just bigger than average. So, yes, he is now considered a standard according to the breed standard, but a knowledgeable poodle person would just say that he is an oversize mini.
Wow, your Zoe is just to die for. Really really beautiful! Thank you for the feedback. Cute that he is a teeny standard in some way! or an oversized mini. Love it.
 

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Hello!

Quick question for you experts. I have a 5 months old mini poodle and I took him to the groomer for the first time. They were adamant that he is no mini poodle (and said that too when I booked the apt). I was very surprised, said I saw the mom who most definitely was a mini, and also that he had almost reached his adult size (around 6 months right?). They told me he's already bigger than a mini and has huge paws and will grow until he's almost 2.
I measured him at home and he is already 15 inches at the shoulder. He weighs about 12lbs and is VERY SKINNY (we are working on that). My other mini was a fat guy at 15. 15lbs would look great on this one.
I must agree that when I met him I thought his face looked different than my other minis, eyes set more narrow, just different. And even at 3 months his feet were HUGE, way bigger than my adult mini. The groomer said that too. So, I am VERY curious to have your feedback, although I understand it's not a science. And frankly, it doesnt matter to me either way. I would LOVE if he were bigger, it would be a nice surprise. I love him to bits anyway. But I imagine that if he is 15in at 5.5months, he is technically already a standard? Thanks in advance for the input. A very curious mama!
In terms of whether a dog is a mini, medium (moyen) or standard, there are two ways to use the terms: use the term to describe the dog's specific genetic variety (which is what most hardcore dog people and dog organizations would subscribe to), or use the term to describe what the dog visually looks like, regardless of his genetic variety (regardless of what his parents are).

Because I'm not in the organized dog world, I find it easier to attribute the term to size rather than genetic origin when I describe my own dogs. I've attached pictures of my two poodles - Vontae, the chocolate who's 13 inches/15 lbs, and Shilo, the silver beige who's 16.5 inches/20 lbs. Visually, Vontae looks like a mini and Shilo looks like a medium/moyen. Genetically, Vontae came from two toy parents and Shilo came from two mini parents - meaning Vontae is genetically an oversized toy and Shilo is genetically an oversized mini. However, from the pictures, you will see that Vontae looks much more like a mini than a toy, and Shilo looks much more like a medium/moyen than a mini. Given that, whenever someone asks what they are, I say mini for Vontae and medium for Shilo, because I think it's a bit cumbersome to have to explain the whole "well actually, he's an oversized..." part to most casual dog observers. Now if I run into someone well versed in the show ring, I wouldn't mind getting into a more in-depth conversation about what they actually are.

Hope that helps. Either way, your pup is gorgeous! FYI as a reference point, Shilo was 15 inches at 7 months and topped out at his current 16.5 inches when he was 9 months. So, looks like your boy may be even bigger! :)

Kevin
 

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PS amazingly, Shilo was the "runt" boy of his litter; the other two boys, Toby and Ronan, are both pushing 18 inches. The three girls of the litter stayed in-size (14+ inches). Attached is a picture of Ronan - yes, he is "technically" a mini lol!

Kevin
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Wow amazing! They definitely are big and out of their original size class. Your toy definitely looks like a mini and yes, it is easier to just say he is. Phoenix is not 6 months yes and yes already 15in. Growth will probably slow down a bit now but probably at least an extra inch. If more all the better. Your Shilo looks huge but could be the perspective too. Thanks for the reply and pics!
 

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Johanna, forgive my ignorance but I had a question regarding your post. You said you stopped showing your girl because the trend is on the bigger side? Doesnt that disqualify them to show as minis? (I know zilch about shows but just curious). can oversize mini be shown in the standard category or if both parents are minis thwn nay? Just curious.
 

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Johanna, forgive my ignorance but I had a question regarding your post. You said you stopped showing your girl because the trend is on the bigger side? Doesnt that disqualify them to show as minis? (I know zilch about shows but just curious). can oversize mini be shown in the standard category or if both parents are minis thwn nay? Just curious.
I suspect what Johanna means is that, nowadays in the show ring, judges favor minis that are in the upper limits of the height range, and in reality, judges also "turn a blind eye" on dogs that are slightly over the height limit (meaning the height limit isn't strictly enforced).

Kevin
 

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Hello!

Quick question for you experts. I have a 5 months old mini poodle and I took him to the groomer for the first time. They were adamant that he is no mini poodle (and said that too when I booked the apt). I was very surprised, said I saw the mom who most definitely was a mini, and also that he had almost reached his adult size (around 6 months right?). They told me he's already bigger than a mini and has huge paws and will grow until he's almost 2.
I measured him at home and he is already 15 inches at the shoulder. He weighs about 12lbs and is VERY SKINNY (we are working on that). My other mini was a fat guy at 15. 15lbs would look great on this one.
I must agree that when I met him I thought his face looked different than my other minis, eyes set more narrow, just different. And even at 3 months his feet were HUGE, way bigger than my adult mini. The groomer said that too. So, I am VERY curious to have your feedback, although I understand it's not a science. And frankly, it doesnt matter to me either way. I would LOVE if he were bigger, it would be a nice surprise. I love him to bits anyway. But I imagine that if he is 15in at 5.5months, he is technically already a standard? Thanks in advance for the input. A very curious mama!
If your puppy is already 15 inches at 5 1/2 months it is almost certain he is going to be an oversize mini because at that age he is not done growing. In technical terms per the breed standard, a Standard Poodle is anything over 15" and up, but if your dog came from all mini breeding, then he is going to be an oversize mini. I expect the groomer is also letting you know because if he is going to be oversize she may be planning to charge you a bit more than what the regular mini fee is for grooming and rightfully so. If he finishes out at 16 or 17", he is going to take longer to groom than a 12 or 13" mini. I would also reach out to the breeder and let her know how big your pup is. You can also ask about the sire if you didn't see him and ask how big he is.
 
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