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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

As I have posted, my daughter and her dog, Chief, will be moving into their own home soon. Although it has been difficult due to the size difference and robust play that Chief engages in, Sammy does seem to enjoy having another dog at home to interact with and I would love to have another dog to love. I don't want Sammy to be lonely after they move and think Sammy would love having a sibling he can freely play with.

I am entertaining the idea of adding a puppy to our family. My first choice would be another toy poodle, however; I cannot afford the upkeep on two poodles.

One of my "hobbies" is researching dog breeds. The Papillon was one of my 3 top choices, prior to getting Sammy, but the ease of poodle trainability is what made me chose a poodle. I think a well bred Papillon would fit nicely into our family. From what I have read, Papillons are intelligent, energetic and loving little dogs. They seem to be compatible in size and temperament with Sammy. I am also much more confident in my ability as a dog owner/trainer.

Some things I'm worried about are that I will not be able to give each dog enough attention, that Sammy may not really want a sibling ( preferring to be an only and it's just me projecting my desires on him) and that it may be best to let things settle before committing. If I wait though, it may be over a year before we are able to get a Papillon puppy from one of the very limited quality breeders, within a 2 day drive from my home.

A seemingly good breeder ( does health testing, Volgard etc. ) has 2 puppies available now ( a boy and a girl ), that are 14 weeks old. I am very hesitant about a puppy that old, due to socialization, but am not 100% against it and am within a short enough drive that I can meet the puppy and both parents prior to committing.

Getting Sammy was a leap of faith that was the best thing I ever did. I don't want to make a mistake, but also think another puppy may be a blessing. Thoughts?
 

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I've also found myself recently smitten with papillons. Such clever, funny little dogs.

Here's a fantastic article I stumbled upon a while back:


Essential reading, I think!

How old is Sammy? And does he have separation anxiety or any other behavioural issues that might rub off on or be exacerbated by a puppy? And have you considered adopting Chief? Would your daughter be open to that?
 

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Most papillon pups would be kept with mum and siblings till they are 12 weeks, so 14 weeks is not so much more. I find them a lovely breed - not as keen on pleasing as a poodle, perhaps, but intelligent, charming, enjoying long walks and fun and games. I would say definitely worth a visit.
 

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Every papillon owner I've met has had no regrets about getting one.

Given that the breeder has invested in Volhard testing, and given that she has two puppies, I would assume the puppies have a solid start with dog socialization.

My biggest concern would be what happens with Chief. You mentioned in another thread that your daughter is going to have a roommate with a Jack Russell terrier. I have known several JRTs that could not live in multi-pet households or that could only live with another dog of the opposite sex. Given Chief's social cluelessness and your daughter's lack of attention, it would not surprise me if Chief finds himself in need of housing after a dust-up with the terrier.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Sammy will be two years old on Jan. 27th. He is firmly attached to me first, other family members too and although he does not like being left alone, and rarely is lately, we work on making sure he is alone for short periods during this pandemic, for his own good.

In my opinion, Sammy has no behavior problems, doesn't exhibit separation anxiety but desires ALOT of attention, which I am more than happy to give him. I think he is confident that when left alone, we will be back. Sammy is truley the perfect dog. He "matches" his behavior to me. I know that another puppy will not be as easy to live with as Sammy. I also think Sammy would love a companion puppy that he can play with, spend time with etc. without me being worried about his safety. Sammy is very gentle. We have a small parrot that I can leave out of cage and Sammy will not injure him.

FJM, thank you for the information. Sammy was 12 weeks old when I got him. He still seemed like a tiny, young puppy and I was able to socialize him ( even though he only had one set of shots and lots of the socialization was from a stroller (or my arms) and he is the nicest, unafraid dog that loves everyone, without being over-bearing.

I am glad I had the time with him from 12 to 14 weeks though. He grew up alot in those 14 days.

There are benefits to getting an older puppy, if raised right! I am leaning towards visiting. I know me though. If I visit, I am coming home with a puppy!
 

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Cowpony, we cross posted. Yes, I do worry about the possibility of Chief needing to return to my home.

My daughter has said she has " plenty of people that will help her" in that event, but I know it will come down to me. The Jack Russell is a female ( Chief is unaltered male), but the one and only introduction they had did not go well.

From what I have seen from my Sammy, he loves being with other well behaved dogs. We go to obedience classes regularly. All dogs are expected to behave respectfully towards each other. Sammy is very gentle and kind towards others. I think he would love having a similiar sized dog to play with. He and my cat were best friends, until Chief moved in. My cat is now semi-aggressive towards chief, hides alot, but on the rare occassion when Chief is gone, Sammy and the cat still play nicely with each other.

Maybe I just have puppy fever and should wait. Then I think now is perfect. Geeze, so hard to decide! And the cute puppy pics from the breeder do not help!
 

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I have heard that Papillons are really good at agility. And they're soooo cute!

Just look at this girl go! SPEED!

And yeah... JRTs (to be honest, most terriers) and other dogs can be a huge dice roll, especially if the JRT is not extremely socialized. We got super lucky with Misty in that she seems to have inherited whatever her mom's parent was crossed with's social chill, and that we were able to get out with her during her puppy days. She was a very good companion for young me, because we spent almost every day outside playing in snow or digging up worms and a less energetic dog would not have been able to keep up. But a very good portion of JRTs have dog-to-dog (and even dog-to-human) aggression issues, since A) people get them based on what they see on TV, then expect not to socialize or exercise them B) their play style is on another planet from other dogs (terriers send out and expect to receive constant 'we're just playing!' signals) and C) Sometimes people find their aggression cute or funny (it's not). It's like Small Dog Syndrome on steroids, and if they were bigger they'd probably be on a bunch of banned lists. In fact, there's one in our neighborhood right now that we steer clear of because it's very obvious that he will attack if we get close. If you intend to take Chief if things go bad, I'd start preparing now since it's very very likely one of the two dogs is going to leave. I personally would wait until I knew for sure Chief was in a good place, and then search (although I know that's hard, I have some awful puppy fever myself 😬).
 

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The Papillon breeder has 2 available puppies that are 14 weeks old today. She is not going to breed for another year and says her wait list is pretty much full for next year. I guess people are passing these two pups up due to age?
 

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Also, both puppies are female. I have only ever had male dogs ( besides my beagle, that was soo challenged in every way except for loving us ). I just prefer male dogs.
 

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Cowpony, we cross posted. Yes, I do worry about the possibility of Chief needing to return to my home.

My daughter has said she has " plenty of people that will help her" in that event, but I know it will come down to me. The Jack Russell is a female ( Chief is unaltered male), but the one and only introduction they had did not go well.

From what I have seen from my Sammy, he loves being with other well behaved dogs. We go to obedience classes regularly. All dogs are expected to behave respectfully towards each other. Sammy is very gentle and kind towards others. I think he would love having a similiar sized dog to play with. He and my cat were best friends, until Chief moved in. My cat is now semi-aggressive towards chief, hides alot, but on the rare occassion when Chief is gone, Sammy and the cat still play nicely with each other.

Maybe I just have puppy fever and should wait. Then I think now is perfect. Geeze, so hard to decide! And the cute puppy pics from the breeder do not help!
I think you should get a puppy if you want a puppy and if you think Sammy would enjoy a buddy.

Ultimately Chief is only your problem if you choose to make him your problem. You mentioned he bothered your cat as well as playing too rough with Sammy. He sounds like he's simply the wrong dog in the wrong household. He's also very photogenic and a good size. In my area he'd be snapped up instantly if he found himself in rescue.
 

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The Papillon breeder has 2 available puppies that are 14 weeks old today. She is not going to breed for another year and says her wait list is pretty much full for next year. I guess people are passing these two pups up due to age?
They're 14 weeks now, but why weren't they already spoken for if she has a full waitlist?

I'm not trying to be a downer. Just offering up some things to think about. :) I'd personally have an almost impossible time passing up a ready-to-go papillon puppy!
 

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Yes, I think it may be best for me to pass on this breeder for now, although the puppy pics make that hard and I could go get a puppy tomorrow!

I spoke to the breeder. She did not ask any questions about me or our home dynamics. It did not sound like she cared at all where the puppy would go, although she was very nice. She shared that she also has a 16 week old male that she thinks would be perfect for me, based on what I said regarding temperament. So, she had two litters 2 weeks apart.

PTP, I read the link you sent and felt so bad for Sammy! Alot of the "adding another dog" cons applies to our situation, with Chief moving in. Sammy is spoiled rotten but still the sweetest dog. It may be best to wait a year or so to add another pup to the household.

Cowpony - you make me laugh! I love your "tuff" love approach to adult children. My 26 year old daughter gets jealous of the attention I give to my dog. She was so upset last night because I "spent hours babying" him ( that is the only way to keep him next to me, so her dog can have free run of the living space). She said it felt like nails on a chalk board to be around us and I am disgusting in my behavior towards my dog. I just love my dog and want him to stay next to me while her dog gets his energy out.

I do not think I would have these difficulties with a similarly sized, calm puppy for Sammy to live with. Still going to look into a Papillon, just maybe not this breeder.
 

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My neighbor has a papillon . He is a great lil dog, very smart and has always been ever to please. She says he ws one of the easiest dogs she ever had to train. She would get another in a heartbeat. !4 weeks is not a bad age.
 

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Papillon's are great dogs and do get along with other breeds. My standards and papillon's have always played well together. A 14 week old papillon's is not considered old and most papillon breeders I associate with do not let their papillon puppies go to their forever homes until 16 weeks. Since papillon litters tend to be small, I normally do not even consider a puppy home until I am willing to let the puppy go home, a papillon normally wants a longer socialization period with its mother. For a breeder it can be really hard to decide which puppy to keep. It is not uncommon for a pap breeder not to have a wait list.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I decided not to follow through with visiting the puppies.

However, I found another breeder that I am very impressed with. She has been breeding papillons for over 30 years, has "finished" (still not sure what that means) dozens of dogs, has many champions of her own and in her lines, is very active in showing still and she is 80 years old!

She obviously cares deeply about everyone of her dogs/puppies. She asked many questions, she does not let future pup parents "chose" a puppy from a litter. She has an extensive questionaire and matches a puppy ( or 2 and lets you pick from them when applicable) to you, based on your responses. She even said that if the right puppy wasn't in a current litter, the "buyer" would have to wait, regardless of where you are on the wait list.

She is VERY proud of her breeding program, not at all pushing for a sale. She actively encouraged me to continue to research breeders to make absolutely sure I went with the best breeder for me, even recommending some that she knows. She would like to continue conversing with me through phone/email for a period of time to "get to know each other and better".

She does extensive health testing and has documentation to prove it. It also appears that she is well known in breeding/show social circles.

One issue that came up, Sammy is not neutered. I fully expected to neuter him, but based on much research, I kept putting it off because it seemed that the health benefits of not neutering out-weighed the benefits of doing it. Sammy is the only dog I have not had fixed. He is now almost 2 yrs. old and still intact. He does not demonstrate ANY of the negative behaviors associated with an intact male, so I don't see why I should do this. This breeder is highly pro-neuter. She said, up to that point, she was very happy with what I had to say, but she is hesitant to let me get one of her pups due to this.

I asked if it would be okay to go forward with the understanding that I would neuter the puppy after 1 yr. of age. She did not seem happy with that, said we need to talk more ( she had to go because her dogs are fed at exactly 5:00 and it was 5:03) and there is a possibility of a "limited registration").

Then, if I had a million dollars in the bank, I would get another poodle. It's upsetting to me that my 2nd dog most likely won't be a poodle, but all your positive feedback on papillons helps. Maybe I will fall in love with this breed too!
 

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You could very easily end up with an accidental pregnancy. I understand her concern. What are your plans to ensure that doesn't happen? Maybe if you provide this information to her, that will help you move forward.

She sounds wonderful!!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Both dogs will be male. I have always liked male dogs better, maybe it is just me, but boys seem so much more loving.
 

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I did not specify sex to the breeder. She said based on my responses, she would recommend a boy puppy, which is what I would gravitate towards.
 

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So weird that my brain inserted "female" and "spay" into your post! I'm so tired. I'm sorry. :) My brain must be fried.

So you'd neuter the papillon, but not Sammy? Are there any potential issues associated with that? If not, I'm surprised she'd care.
 
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