Conformation?

Sorry long,,,,

This topic brings to light a funny little experience I had a few years ago when I was in Vancouver evaluating a litter of puppies. One of the prominent Canadian breeders and I were bantering back and forth about the virtues of each puppy, one of the people watching started getting a horrid look on her face, finally she couldn't hold back any longer and almost sobbing said, "don't you like ANY puppy in this litter!' Without skipping a second she and I both simultaneously yelled out "we love them all!" The point is, that when conformation people get together we are trying to determine the best puppy from the litter to continue with. Every little detail counts. This might sound harsh when someone is looking in, we are only wanting to continue moving forward with the best.

When evaluating a dog for breeding I reference an equilateral triangle,,,,,, all three sides of this decision must be equal, the three sides are * health *temperament * conformation. Each are equally important:

Health -- I want a healthy dog in my life, I want my dog to live a long, happy, and carefree life. (Testing is important)
Temperament -- My dog will live in my house with me and my family, I must have a good dog that I never worry will be disruptive in any manner. (Temperament testing is important)
Conformation -- the make and shape of the dog also impacts 'form and function' form and function will also determine how this puppy will be able to move and live a daily existence. (Evaluation is important)

To what end: I cannot keep, show, or breed, every dog in the litter, what is important to me will benefit the people that wish to have one of my dogs. I do not know which puppy I will keep until the day of my "puppy pick" so each puppy will be raised as the one who will potentially be the one that stays. Each puppy will receive the "military training exercises," (now known as early neurological stimulation exercises) temperament testing at 49 days old, and show evaluation at 8 weeks old. I can only keep one, so the rest are raised as if they are going to stay.

ALL POODLES ARE IMPORTANT: Confirmation flaws just separate the ones that go into the show ring and will eventually be bred. I don't like it when someone states the are 'just looking for a pet' every drop of love and respect should be given to each dog, show or companion, for once a show dog is retired from the ring, it is still my companion.

Is conformation important? short answer , Yes. Is conformation showing important? Yes, this help determine health, temperament, and conformation.

As a red and apricot breeder, it is even more important since I have to complete in the ring with very experienced, seasoned black and white breeders (and let's face it, historically they have concentrated on quality for a much longer period of time with a greater gene pool). In the whelping box, I have an unusually high number of unethical breeders, breeding only for the sake of color.

Here are some thoughts about conformation. For the record, I have been breeding and showing poodles for about 50 years. I have had all three varieties at one time or another.

Each breed has a written standard of the breed. It is a written description of a perfect dog of that breed. The breed standards in the United States are maintained by each national breed club. For poodles, that club is the Poodle Club of America. You will find the breed standard on the web page of poodleclubofamerica.org.

Breed standards vary greatly in detail. Some describe each feature very carefully (bulldog for example), others are quite general and do not go into detail (the standard for greyhounds is a good example). The poodle standard is a pretty good one. When a judge is judging a breed at a dog show s/he is comparing each dog to the standard of the breed. Placements are made according to how closely each dog comes to that description of a perfect dog of that breed. Some breed standards have "disqualifying faults". A dog with a disqualifying fault must be dismissed from conformation competition. That dog can compete in any other dog sport other than conformation. The idea is to select dogs who are likely to pass on those features that identify a dog as being of a particular breed. Some disqualifications are for features that are harmful (cow hocks, bad bites, etc.); others are simply aesthetic (color, markings, size, etc.). The poodle standard does have two special disqualifications: 1) a dog that is not within the size limit for its variety is not permanently disqualified (it can be shown again so long as it is entered in the variety for its size) and 2) a dog cannot be shown in any clip other than the ones described in the breed standard (again, once the clip has been corrected the dog is again eligible). The only other disqualification is for color - a poodle must be a solid color, so parti-colors are not allowed at AKC shows.

Standards are not static - the national club reviews and revises its standard. The last revision to the poodle standard was in 2016.

(BTW, I just noticed the posts by farleysd and reraven - I was writing the above as they were posting.)

No, conformation isn't the great "be all and end all", but it is important. This is my nearly ten year old GSD (picked up as a stray puppy, with no clue of where she originally came from), who is a good example of poor conformation, from her snipy muzzle to her gay tail.

Starting at said snipy muzzle, these are the highlights:

1) Snipy muzzle, with not much underjaw and chin, with a slight malocclusion, resulting in most of her lower incisors being worn down to nubs.
2) Lack of stop, which doesn't affect anything.
3) Straight shoulders with short forearms, resulting in a choppy gait with limited forward extension of the front leg, resulting in more pounding on her body.
4) Continuing with her front assembly, she has tied in elbows, a narrow front, and her feet are easty-westy. Her chest and toing out improved with maturity, but it still causes strain.
5) Her topline isn't bad for a West German show line dog (which I suspect she has behind her), but she still has a distinct curve to it, and the vet suspects some significant spinal arthritis.
6) Rear angulation doesn't match the front, which again leads to gait irregularities. She's also sickle hocked, leading to lack of propulsion. Add in cow hocked, which causes general overall strain on the hind legs.
7) That tail...... It's ridiculous, but I love it. She does carry it down like a typical GSD tail a lot, but any time she gets excited, up it comes.

2021-4-29 Boardwalk and Ship Channel DSC_0038 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

2021-6-7 Dogs DSC_0420 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

For Want of Poodle said:

Your German Shepherd looks funnily similar to a Rough Collie I know in profile - face and tail shape (and also back length, most shepherds I see have a longer back/shorter legs).

Have you ever had her genetic tested?

Click to expand...

I think it's the lack of stop and the longer coat that make people think she's a Rough Collie or Rough Collie mix. She's been called "Lassie" more than once. Her overall conformation, coloring, and long stock coat all point to West German Show line GSD by way of a BYB (probably mixed with American pet line dogs, which tend to be longer legged with a more level topline and less rear angulation). She looks more "shepherdy" when she hits the typical GSD three point stack, for which I never have a camera handy. These are close, though.

2021-2-16 Winter storm DSC_0414 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

2015-7-5 Dogs & morning glories DSC_0585 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

I've never had her DNA tested, although both the AKC and UKC say she looks enough like a GSD to be listed as such. Maybe one of these days, I will.

Your question has been excellently addressed by the preceding members. This blog post is often quoted to help, especially newer, members understand why each of those triangle sides mentioned by farleysd are all part of the blueprint or recipe of a well bred purebred dog.

"I don't want a show dog - just a pet." (Updated for 2020)
This is one of the most pervasive sentiments that puppy buyers, especially families, express when they’re looking for a dog. What they really mean, of course, is that they don’t want a show BREEDER – don’t want to pay the high price they think show breeders charge, don’t want to go through the often-invasive interview process, and think that they’re getting a better deal or a real bargain because they can get a Lab for $300 or a Shepherd for $150.
I want you to change your mind.
I want you to not only realize the benefits of buying a show-bred dog, I want you to INSIST on a show-bred dog.
And I want you to realize that the cheap dog is really the one that’s the rip-off.
And then I want you to go be obnoxious and, when your workmate says she’s getting a puppy because her neighbor, who raises them, will give her one for free, or when your brother-in-law announces that they’re buying a cheap puppy for the kids, I want you to launch yourself into their solar plexus and steal their wallets and their car keys.
Here’s why:
If I ask you why you want a Maltese, or a Lab, or a Leonberger, or a Cardigan, I would bet you’re not going to talk about how much you like their color.
You’re going to tell me things about personality, ability (to perform a specific task), relationships with other animals or humans, size, coat, temperament, and so on. You’ll describe playing ball, or how affectionate you’ve heard that they are, or how well they get along with kids.
The things you will be looking for aren’t the things that describe just “dog”; they’ll be the things that make this particular breed unique and unlike other breeds.
That’s where people have made the right initial decision – they’ve taken the time and made the effort to understand that there are differences between breeds and that they should get one that at least comes close to matching their picture of what they want a dog to be.
Their next step, tragically, is that they go out and find a dog of that breed for as little money and with as much ease as possible.
You need to realize that when you do this, you’re going to the used car dealership, WATCHING them pry the “Audi” plate off a new car, observing them as they use Bondo to stick it on a ’98 Corolla, and then writing them a check and feeling smug that you got an Audi for so little.
It is no bargain.
Those things that distinguish the breed you want from the generic world of “dog” are only there because somebody worked really hard to get them there. And as soon as that work ceases, the dog, no matter how purebred, begins to revert to the generic. That doesn’t mean you won’t get a good dog – the magic and the blessing of dogs is that they are so hard to mess up, in their good souls and minds, that even the most hideously bred one can still be a great dog – but it will not be a good Shepherd, or good Puli, or a good Cardigan. You will not get the specialized abilities, tendencies, or talents of the breed.
If you don’t NEED those special abilities or the predictability of a particular breed, you should not be buying a dog at all. You should go rescue one. That way you’re saving a life and not putting money in pockets where it does not belong.
If you want a purebred and you know that a rescue is not going to fit the bill, the absolute WORST thing you can do is assume that a name equals anything. They really are nothing more than name plates on cars. What matters is whether the engineering and design and service department back up the name plate, so you have some expectation that you’re walking away with more than a label.
Keeping a group of dogs looking and acting like their breed is hard, HARD work. If you do not get the impression that the breeder you’re considering is working that hard, is that dedicated to the breed, is struggling to produce dogs that are more than a breed name, you are getting no bargain; you are only getting ripped off.

RufflySpeaking | A blog about all things dog



And if you're into history, you might like this from The Poodle History Project. There's links on this page to some of the older kennel/breed club poodle breed standards.
Show dogs (archive.org)

Excerpt:
Show dogs and their cousins
Conformation exhibition
Conformation exhibition as we know it is a relatively modern phenomenon--is only about 125 years old. For a critical analysis (from the perspective of social history) of the early development of dog shows and of breed standards which are the essential prerequisite to judging individuals according to breed type, please see: Harriet Ritvo, The Animal Estate: The English and Other Creatures of the Victorian Age (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1987), pp. 82-115 (part Chapter 2: "Prize Pets").

The first recorded dog show (that we know of) was in 1603 when the Holy Roman Emperor, Rudolf II, organized a field trial in which 480 dogs competed. Another show, for Schipperkes only, was held in Brussels in 1690; this event "appears to have been one of a regular series organized by Brussels shoemakers to show off their dogs in their ornate, intricately worked metal collars," states Frank Jackson, editor, Faithful Friends: Dogs in Life and Literature (London: Robinson, 1997), p. 359. Jackson continues, in his prefatory essay to Chapter 12, "In Competition": "In 1791 Ignaz Cernov and Father Martin Pelcl visited a dog show which took place in Prague....It lasted three days. There were 128 dogs on exhibition...[including] 10 Poodles..." A show for sporting breeds took place in June, 1859 "as part of a well-established poultry show held at the Corn Market, Newcastle-upon-Tyne. The event has since erroneously come to be regarded as the first dog show, but its significance is as the first dog show to attract a high proportion of its entries from far away, something which had become possible with the advent of the railway." (Ibid, p. 361.)

Soundness
Assessment of dogs' conformation according to principles of soundness is an ancient skill which has become rare only since automobiles replaced horses as a main means of transportation. Most of us no longer possess once-upon-a-time-ordinary abilities to judge locomotion on four legs: we pay attention to four wheels, both riding on them and avoiding them. However, through concentrated attention we can regain this skill, and the best of the modern study-tools is cineradiography ("moving X-rays") pioneered by Rachel Page Elliott and described in her book,The New Dogsteps, 2nd edition (New York: Howell Book House, 1983) and the corresponding video: "Dogsteps": a study of canine structure and movement.

For on-line study materials literally at your fingertips, go to Gaits: gait footfall patterns, and other valuable information in the University of Minnisota's College of Veterinary Medicine's Veterinary Anatomy website.

After careful study at home, there's no better way to develop skills than to sit all day at ringside at a big modern dog show.

Breed Type
Here's a short definition of breed type: "that collection of specific characteristics which, when taken together, separate one breed from another" (Patrick Ormos, "The Importance of Breed Type", American Kennel Club Gazette, December 1991, p. 72). For example: Breed type enables us to tell the difference between the Poodle, the Barbet, the Portugese Water Dog and the Puli.

Closely allied with breed type is the concept of style. Here's a short definition of breed style: "the specific way in which the defining characteristics of breed type are expressed" (ibid). Ormos advises: "Breed type should be a priority for every breeder. Consistent style should be our goal."

Ideally, excellent conformation provides a platform for excellent performance, and the sum total is soundness. When type and breed-appropriate temperament are also present, an ideal is fulfilled: for example, "Am., Bda., Can., Dom., Mex. and F.C.I. Int. Ch. Stormy Lane to Sir with Love, Am., Bda., and Can. UD, Mex. PC, Best in Show and High Score in Trial winner both on the same day," (Poodles in America, vol. V, Poodle Club of America, 1980, p. 472).

Unfortunately, type and (especially) style are vulnerable to fashion. Newcomers and old-timers alike may differ from a judge who typically chooses "typey" dogs according to current fashion; thus, an incorrect concept of type dominates and becomes, in effect, "correct"--even though it is explicitly precluded by the breed standard. Example: these days, many Poodles which are successful in the breed ring do not adhere to the breed standard in a matter essential to soundness: they are "too straight in front"; judges' eyes have become so acclimatized to this great fault that it has become part of the style they're looking for.

Another conundrum: the breed ring puts a very fine point on type. However, this is actually a mysterious and generalized concept. For example, we have no difficulty identifying a Border Collie, even though there's a broad variation between individuals. How do we know that a field-bred Labrador, slender and agile as a Whippet, is as much a pure descendant of the St. John's Newfoundland as a dog bred to the conformation standard and with appropriate working temperament? In both instances we "know" partly by demeanour, by the way of going, as well as by certain physical characterisics held in common. That we "know" indicates that type can vary more broadly than is generally accepted, and yet hold together as an integrated concept.

This broad interpretation of type explains how we recognize long-ago Poodles--proto-Poodles--in tapestries, woodcuts, wood engravings, paintings, in verbal descriptions, and so on (see "...Visuals" and ...Lit 101). It is probable that (but we have not yet found the documentation; we're commencing to delve) Poodles--proto-Poodles--used in falconry/hawking--always male--were exchanged along with the birds of prey at the annual late-fall auction held at Valkenswaard ("falcons' place") in Holland during the Middle Ages and continued to be exchanged there even after Poodles commenced their careers as gun-dogs ca 1600. This would explain the pan-European universality of type which we "click into" despite having eyes trained by the modern conformation ring.

For a coherent (very rare: many otherwise lucid people are rendered incohate by the subject!) criticism of breeding dogs "for" conformation exhibition, see: Konrad Lorenz, Man Meets Dog (NY: Kodansha, 1994; first published in German in 1953, first American edition 1955), ch. 9, pp. 92-98, "An Appeal to Dog Breeders" which develops the thesis that it "is a sad but undeniable fact that breeding to a strict standard of physical points is incompatible with breeding for mental qualities..." After dryly observing that he doesn't know a single intellectual man who looks like Adonis, the author states that it is possible for breeders to compromise in choice of physical and mental properties, but conformation competition inevitably involves the danger of exaggeration "of all those points which characterize a breed...." a statement with which Poodle-fanciers must fervently agree. While you have this wonderful book in your hands, see pp. 141-3 for references to the Poodle, "rightly famed for his sagacity" and "extraordinary 'humanness.'"

Poodle Breed Standards
To examine Poodle breed standards from 1886 to the present day, go to Breed standards.

"The Breed Standard is the Blueprint, the Breeder is the Builder, and the Judge is the Building Inspector" --Percy Roberts, breeder/handler/judge
Since building inspectors judge buildings in relation to building codes designed to ensure function--soundness--not aesthetics (don't we wish!), this analogy is accurate in relation to dog judging insofar as the judge selects soundness in accord with the breed standard, in preference to the preferred type of the day. In the instance of a judge who selects type in preference to soundness, Mr. Robert's statement is more accurate in the following revision: "The Breed Standard is the Blueprint, the Breeder is the Builder, and the Judge is the aesthetic-architecture-contest judge."

See: "The Judge is the Building Inspector", by Richard G. Beauchamp (editor/publisher of Kennel Review, 1964-1993; breeder under Beau Monde prefix; judge), Dogs in Canada, March 1999, pp. 27-9. Final article in series of six. "Soundness versus Type-- This leads us to an area of judging that has been debated through the ages [sic--since ca 1880]. When evaluating merit, some judges begin by selecting the soundest in the class and then selecting from them the individuals with the greatest type. Others make their first cut based on type and then evaluate these on the basis of soundness. I am a staunch proponent of the latter.... The judge thus paints a visual picture of his ideal..." p. 29.

Thanks for your response!! I have a poodle mix right now and planning on getting a standard poodle. I appreciate your insight, that all makes sense! And goes along with what was initially in my brain…I may or may not have gone down a rabbit hole of 10+ year old posts and maybe they’re a bit more judgy 😅
[/QUOTE]
We have our first Standard Poodle by an outstanding versatile poodle breeder. Our pup’s temperament is so balanced, affectionate, calm and playful. He has his Canine Good Citizen at 9 months. Standard poodles are a breed above the crowd and everyone who has a new doodle around here (80% of new dogs) look at him with admiration. They tell us that their favorite part about their doodle mix is the poodle part. You will love having a Standard Poodle. Tutto was bred well and he has a strong and balanced conformation that is apparent to anyone even if you don’t know dogs. Good breeding shows in health, vigor and temperament. His tail is not docked nor has his dew claws been removed so even with his beautiful conformation he was not bred as a “show” dog.

TeamHellhound said:

No, conformation isn't the great "be all and end all", but it is important. This is my nearly ten year old GSD (picked up as a stray puppy, with no clue of where she originally came from), who is a good example of poor conformation, from her snipy muzzle to her gay tail.

Starting at said snipy muzzle, these are the highlights:

1) Snipy muzzle, with not much underjaw and chin, with a slight malocclusion, resulting in most of her lower incisors being worn down to nubs.
2) Lack of stop, which doesn't affect anything.
3) Straight shoulders with short forearms, resulting in a choppy gait with limited forward extension of the front leg, resulting in more pounding on her body.
4) Continuing with her front assembly, she has tied in elbows, a narrow front, and her feet are easty-westy. Her chest and toing out improved with maturity, but it still causes strain.
5) Her topline isn't bad for a West German show line dog (which I suspect she has behind her), but she still has a distinct curve to it, and the vet suspects some significant spinal arthritis.
6) Rear angulation doesn't match the front, which again leads to gait irregularities. She's also sickle hocked, leading to lack of propulsion. Add in cow hocked, which causes general overall strain on the hind legs.
7) That tail...... It's ridiculous, but I love it. She does carry it down like a typical GSD tail a lot, but any time she gets excited, up it comes.

2021-4-29 Boardwalk and Ship Channel DSC_0038 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

2021-6-7 Dogs DSC_0420 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Click to expand...

She looks more Belgium Tervuren to me. I bred GSDs 40+ years.

TeamHellhound said:

No, conformation isn't the great "be all and end all", but it is important. This is my nearly ten year old GSD (picked up as a stray puppy, with no clue of where she originally came from), who is a good example of poor conformation, from her snipy muzzle to her gay tail.

Starting at said snipy muzzle, these are the highlights:

1) Snipy muzzle, with not much underjaw and chin, with a slight malocclusion, resulting in most of her lower incisors being worn down to nubs.
2) Lack of stop, which doesn't affect anything.
3) Straight shoulders with short forearms, resulting in a choppy gait with limited forward extension of the front leg, resulting in more pounding on her body.
4) Continuing with her front assembly, she has tied in elbows, a narrow front, and her feet are easty-westy. Her chest and toing out improved with maturity, but it still causes strain.
5) Her topline isn't bad for a West German show line dog (which I suspect she has behind her), but she still has a distinct curve to it, and the vet suspects some significant spinal arthritis.
6) Rear angulation doesn't match the front, which again leads to gait irregularities. She's also sickle hocked, leading to lack of propulsion. Add in cow hocked, which causes general overall strain on the hind legs.
7) That tail...... It's ridiculous, but I love it. She does carry it down like a typical GSD tail a lot, but any time she gets excited, up it comes.

2021-4-29 Boardwalk and Ship Channel DSC_0038 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

2021-6-7 Dogs DSC_0420 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Click to expand...

TeamHellhound said:

No, conformation isn't the great "be all and end all", but it is important. This is my nearly ten year old GSD (picked up as a stray puppy, with no clue of where she originally came from), who is a good example of poor conformation, from her snipy muzzle to her gay tail.

Starting at said snipy muzzle, these are the highlights:

1) Snipy muzzle, with not much underjaw and chin, with a slight malocclusion, resulting in most of her lower incisors being worn down to nubs.
2) Lack of stop, which doesn't affect anything.
3) Straight shoulders with short forearms, resulting in a choppy gait with limited forward extension of the front leg, resulting in more pounding on her body.
4) Continuing with her front assembly, she has tied in elbows, a narrow front, and her feet are easty-westy. Her chest and toing out improved with maturity, but it still causes strain.
5) Her topline isn't bad for a West German show line dog (which I suspect she has behind her), but she still has a distinct curve to it, and the vet suspects some significant spinal arthritis.
6) Rear angulation doesn't match the front, which again leads to gait irregularities. She's also sickle hocked, leading to lack of propulsion. Add in cow hocked, which causes general overall strain on the hind legs.
7) That tail...... It's ridiculous, but I love it. She does carry it down like a typical GSD tail a lot, but any time she gets excited, up it comes.

2021-4-29 Boardwalk and Ship Channel DSC_0038 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

2021-6-7 Dogs DSC_0420 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Click to expand...

As you don't have pedigree for this stray, did you consider the Belgium Turvuren?

Jilly SummerSunset said:

As you don't have pedigree for this stray, did you consider the Belgium Turvuren? View attachment 484348
View attachment 484347

Click to expand...

Leo as a baby.

April 23. 2012 010 edit by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Tervuren as a baby (random internet grab).

Denver by Rachel, on Flickr

She's black and red, and Tervurens are sable.

This breeder has WGSL dogs, and this is one of their bitches. Haley vom Nevadahaus | German Shepherd Breeding Females | Nevada Haus