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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi there - we are picking up our standard poodle puppy in the next couple of weeks and I'm so excited. We have a 4 year old blue standard at the moment, and the little girl we are getting is the niece of the girl we currently have.

Genetics question about what color our pup will be. Breeder says she's a dark girl, no promise regarding blue/silver/black.

The father of our pup is white. His mother and father were both white.

The mother of our pup is black. I'm not sure what color her mother was. Her father was blue. 1) Does the fact that her father is blue mean that her mother had to be black since she is black? 2) She's a finished champion - why wouldn't OFA have her mother's info?

I don't care what color this pup turns out to be, but I am curious about whether any experts on this forum can reach a conclusion based on the info above.


Premium Member
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Definitely not an expert in any of your questions but I may have some tools to suggest.

2) She's a finished champion - why wouldn't OFA have her mother's info?
Assuming it's health testing you're referring to, the breeder can choose to not make public any abnormal results, and the way I'm reading all the info in these links, I can't find a definitive statement that any results must be made public.
If you're asking about color testing, I don't think you'll find that testing there. That will be done thru other independent labs and published on their own sites, also presumably if the owner agrees. OFA's focus is health.

"The OFA recommends owners release all test results to the public domain as it is in the ultimate health interest of the breed and the information greatly increases the depth and breadth of any resulting research and/or pedigree analysis. However, owners have a choice regarding the release of abnormal results.

Currently, all normal results from data submitted to the OFA are automatically included in the public domain. For abnormal results, the OFA provides owners the choice of reporting information in the public domain. If you would like ALL results included in the public domain, please check the appropriate box on the application."

The breeder may have done testing and simply chose not to make the results public thru OFA or possibly there was no testing.

The father of our pup is white. His mother and father were both white.

The mother of our pup is black. I'm not sure what color her mother was. Her father was blue. 1) Does the fact that her father is blue mean that her mother had to be black since she is black?
This is my go to resource for color breeding questions:

and this

Select a poodle from the left column that represents the color of one of the dogs being bred , and then select a poodle from the top column that represents the color of the other dog being bred , follow the two till they meet and this will give you probable colors of the puppies produced .


Poodle Color Inheritance

There are a lot of opportunities in color mixing, but it requires a solid knowledge about the mechanisms of heredity. You can avoid color related risks by breeding only the same color poodles, but in the long run bigger gene pools will help reduce the problems of e.g. inheritable diseases. By using color mixing, we can maintain a healthy base of recessive colored poodles (white, apricot, brown, red). Until the year 2006 color mixing with poodles was subject to license in Finland.

Let’s start with the basic terminology:

Genotype: Describes the dog’s heredity.

Dominant: The ruling attribute in the phenotype. E.g. black color in a poodle.

Recessive: Yielding attribute, that appears when there is no dominant gene present. In other words, the recessive attribute shows, when the dog has two recessive elements. E.g. apricot color in a poodle.

Genes: Inheritable attributes that are located in the chromosomes. Dogs have 39 pairs that make 78 chromosomes. Half of these come from the male and the other half from the female, because gametes have only 39 chromosomes.

Inheritance could simply be described with the following example:
A black female poodle’s genotype is Bb (B = black, b = brown, black being the dominant and brown being the recessive gene)
If this poodle is paired with a black male poodle, could their puppy be a brown one? Well, it depends on the male’s genotype:
If the male is BB: possible puppy variations are BB or Bb, meaning only black puppies.
If the male is Bb: possible puppy variations are BB, Bb and bb, the last option being a brown puppy.
Recessive genes bring complications to breeding, because they can be hidden against the odds for multiple generations. Even if your black poodle has black parents and grandparents, you can’t be sure if the recessive gene will pop out in the brood eventually.
The color of the dog is determined by 11 gene pairs that are not connected to each other. Mixing colors is not as simple as in the previous example, because we need to add more variables.

Let’s make a bit more complicated example:
B (black pigment)
b (brown pigment)
E (color in the whole dog)
e (color only in the muzzle)

Now let’s assume that we are breeding two dogs:
Apricot BBee (Apricot poodle, that has black pigment only in its muzzle)

Brown bbEE (Poodle that has brown everywhere)
Now if the puppy would be BbEe, it will be a completely black poodle with the recessive attributes from its parents.

This means that we need to take into account a lot of different things in breeding, not just the color. Many breeders don’t want to try color mixing, because you can’t never really remove the risk of unwanted combinations completely (especially when you take into account the so called modifying genes!). But breeding the same recessive colored poodles with each other will eventually lead to the diminution of the gene pool, not to mention the loss of other wanted attributes (e.g. health issues with the eyes, muzzles or hips). Controlled color mixing could be the only way to get a healthier base.
One of the most interesting poodle colors is red, that was accepted as an independent color as late as 2007. The color is still a somewhat mystery, but it’s assumed to be originated from red cockers. It’s believed to be caused by a separate gene called the “Rufus” gene. Red is dominant to apricot, so two red poodles can have apricot puppies, but not the other way around.

There is a lot of complicated stuff behind color mixing, but it has become more popular than ever. Recessive colored poodles are becoming more common, so breeders are nowadays required to know a lot about inheritance mechanisms. Things are luckily becoming easier, as you can now purchase a DNA test for your poodle.

One of the companies that offer DNA testing is VetGen, which has developed a chart about poodle color mixing:
If your dog is black the possible genotypes are: BBEE, BBEe, BbEE, BbEe.
If your dog is brown, the possible genotypes are: bbEE, bbEe.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a black nose, possible genotypes are: BBee, Bbee.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a brown nose, your dog's genotype is bbee.

In the picture below cream represents cream, white, apricot and red.


More on Genetics

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You got the long answer from Rose n Poos, here's the short one 😉
1. No, the mother of the mother does not have to be black. That's because blue and silver are (as far as we know, since the genetic marker has not yet been found) caused by a fading factor, which is layered on top of black (same goes for cafe au lait and silver beige, except on top of brown). The theory is that blue has one fading gene, silver has two. So, since the father was blue, then he was technically black with one fading gene. That means he could father both blue and black (any other possibilities would depend on what he carried that was hidden). The only thing that you can know, is that the mother did not have two copies of the fading gene. Because black (and it's faded counterparts) are dominant, the mother could have been just about anything.

Your pup will have inherited the black from it's mom, but because the dad was white you can't tell whether he contributed any fading gene to turn that black into blue or silver.
(I said this was the short answer, didn't I? Oops... 😄)

2. As Rose said, OFA has nothing to do with showing or championships. You don't need any sort of health testing to show a dog as far as I know.
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