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Hi all,

I signed up and posted last year regarding getting a miniature poodle puppy. At the time we decided to put a hold on the process as we were not comfortable with the situation around covid and also the high prices that we're being quoted by what i thought were reputable breeders.

Anyway, things seem to have calmed down and we are looking at a potential puppy in the coming weeks.

We have been in touch with one breeder and we are happy with the health testing that has been done and we have seen evidence of that and the puppies will be Kennel Club registered (which we've also confirmed) which does put my mind at ease a little.

The bit i am struggling to get my head around is the inbreeding coefficient (if that is in fact the right term). According to the Kennel Club UK the breed average is just under 5% for last year. The puppies I we are looking at appear to be 8%. Having looked at their lines (7 generations back) i can see that there are one or two male dogs names that crop up more than once dotted around both sides of the family tree. I know that this can be a common occurrence especially with breeders who are looking to improve the breed etc. There doesn't appear to be any close breeding from what i can see and i know the KC UK won't register close related breeding's in any case.

However what i wanted to know is how important is inbreeding coefficient for a dog we're having as a pet? We have no intention of breeding from them and we will be getting them fixed as soon as the time is right.

I know this figure is a measure of risk and you can have unhealthy dogs at 0% and health dogs at 20% etc. but wanted to get peoples thoughts regarding this please?

Thank you
 

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8% would not bother me. My own dog is from a line breeding and his COI is probably higher than that. You want a mixture of outcrossing and careful line breeding to keep a breeder's lines healthy and up to breed standard. I would not buy from a breeder doing a very close mating such as siblings or mother/son but a couple relatives on both sides of the tree is fairly typical.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you. My thoughts are the same however I am far from knowledgeable. Having looked closer looks like my calculation was wrong and the kc website actually has it listed at 9% so I was a little out, but I don’t think that changes my feelings personally.

Looking at the history there are no close matings from what I can see.

Although coincidentally, mom and dad have a similar element of the same first name but can’t see any obvious connection.
 

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The way purebred animals are developed is to breed dogs who are related and have the desired characteristics. If a low COI is desired, the solution is to get a mutt!

The line of standard poodles that I had in the 70s and 80s started with an outcross breeding that was repeated 3 times. The first breeding produced 8 puppies - all but one became champions. The second breeding produced 4 puppies, all champions. I cannot remember how many puppies were in the third breeding, but I do know that there were 5 champions. See my post dated August 15, 2017 for details.

There was little or no health testing available at that time that could be used.

The important thing to consider is the health testing background.
 

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I quickly searched what the average COI of standard poodles is and found the figure of 15% . With that being said, I think a 9% COI for a miniature poodle would be acceptable.
 

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I quickly searched what the average COI of standard poodles is and found the figure of 15% . With that being said, I think a 9% COI for a miniature poodle would be acceptable.
Standards are all now impacted by the Whycliffe bottleneck. So unnaturally high COIs.
Wherever you go in Poodledom, you can't hardly get away from those genes....
 

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Not sure if this is helpful to you, as Peggy’s a standard poodle, but her COI is 14%. Some interesting data from Embark:

Plot Parallel Slope Font Symmetry
 

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Elroy: Standard Poodle 02/20/21
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That chart makes it look like anywhere from around 10% to 20% is the norm.
 

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My miniature's graph

Slope Plot Rectangle Parallel Font


And this small excerpt from the Vet Gen Lab at UC Davis
MiniaturePoodle20191009.pdf (ucdavis.edu)

VI. Interpretation of DNA-based genetic testing

Miniature Poodles have the greatest amount of genetic diversity that has been found in any breed tested to date. This diversity is evident in the genomic autosomes as well as in important regions such as the DLA. This genetic (genotypic) diversity can be attributed to the tremendous phenotypic diversity found between individuals of the “variety.” This can be attributed to a wide genetic base that apparently involved introgressions from several breeds other than Standard or Toy Poodle varieties;their popularity and large population size favoring random mate selection;a relatively loose standard including different coats, coat colors; and a range of sizes and body types. Breeders have been also diligent in selecting the least related parents available to them, as indicated by the small amount of allele and haplotype sharing.
 

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Not to go too far off the focus on miniatures but...
I quickly searched what the average COI of standard poodles is and found the figure of 15% . With that being said, I think a 9% COI for a miniature poodle would be acceptable.
Standards are all now impacted by the Whycliffe bottleneck. So unnaturally high COIs.
Wherever you go in Poodledom, you can't hardly get away from those genes....
The breed has suffered a major artificial genetic bottleneck associated with show-winning bloodlines that rose to dominance in the 1950s. The history of this event was first described by Dr. John Armstrong in his description of the famous sire Sir Gay [17]. Although Sir Gay was not particularly noteworthy in the show ring, his claim to fame came from the breeding of his son Annsown Gay Knight of Arhill to Wycliffe Jacqueline of the Wycliffe Kennel. The mating of Annsown Gay Knight to Wycliffe Jacqueline produced dogs of show-winning form and their progeny were exported around the world and heavily used in close linebreeding to establish type. As a result, almost all subsequent show-winning Standard Poodle stud dogs have had Sir Gay in their pedigree. However, Wycliffe lines were only part of the genetic bottleneck and kennels such as Carillon, Lowmont, Puttencove, and Bel Tor also rose to prominence during this time, creating an even broader Midcentury bottleneck (MCB) [18]. The genetic contribution of these lines to contemporary Standard Poodles is referred to as % Wycliffe and % MCB. A third, and minor bottleneck, occurred at about this same time when Old English Apricot (OEA) poodles were used to improve the quality of dogs with the apricot coat color. The greatest % OEA is found in apricot and red Standard Poodles.

These offspring and their descendants were widely used by Standard Poodle breeders in North America and exported to the UK, Scandinavia, Australia Continental Europe. This artificial midcentury bottleneck (MCB) has created a severe imbalance and probable loss of genetic diversity. Using genetic tests based on 33 genome-wide and seven dog leukocyte antigen (DLA) class I and II short tandem repeat (STR) markers, we were able to study genetic diversity in poodles from the USA, Canada and Europe. Standard Poodles from all of these geographic regions were closely related, indicating a considerable ongoing transoceanic exchange of dogs. Although Standard Poodles still possess considerable total diversity, 70 % of this diversity resides in only 30 % of the population. This imbalance in diversity was both evident across the genome as well as in the DLA class I and II regions, the latter often associated with autoimmune disease. SA and AD entered the breed through different lines and at different times, but the traits underlying these diseases were more likely ancestral in many dog breeds and inadvertently concentrated as a result of the MCB

The effect of genetic bottlenecks and inbreeding on the incidence of two major autoimmune diseases in standard poodles, sebaceous adenitis and Addison’s disease | Canine Medicine and Genetics | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)
 

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Elroy: Standard Poodle 02/20/21
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All new to me. Is it desirable to have a low (lowest) COI? Is higher bad for potential diseases or breeding? Do breeders look for a COI of "x" when pairing up mates? What is the relevance?
 

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All new to me. Is it desirable to have a low (lowest) COI? Is higher bad for potential diseases or breeding? Do breeders look for a COI of "x" when pairing up mates? What is the relevance?
Yes, yes, and yes, Tom.
Years ago in here there was discussion of finding unrelated Poodle genes in a Hunting line from somewhere in the Alps. I don't know what happened from it. It's still being pursued as far as I know. I once saw a picture of these dogs and yes, they are unrelated to Wycliffe. The problem is that they don't look like the Poodles that we know. lol
 

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All new to me. Is it desirable to have a low (lowest) COI? Is higher bad for potential diseases or breeding? Do breeders look for a COI of "x" when pairing up mates? What is the relevance?
My answers: Maybe. Maybe. No.

I want poodles to look like poodles and to be as free of hereditary diseases as possible. So when I am looking at stud dogs I look for a dog that exemplifies the standard and who has tested clear of hereditary diseases. I look at his pedigree to see if his parents, grandparents, and possibly great-grandparents were also of excellent quality and were tested free of diseases. I prefer to line breed to capture type and health.
 

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Years ago in here there was discussion of finding unrelated Poodle genes in a Hunting line from somewhere in the Alps. I don't know what happened from it. It's still being pursued as far as I know. I once saw a picture of these dogs and yes, they are unrelated to Wycliffe. The problem is that they don't look like the Poodles that we know. lol

CB, this might be the thread. It's definitely one of the ones that got me so interested in learning and researching and branching out from there to all the places I've gone so far.
New info may be available since this is a decade ago, Yadda may have run into a personal downfall but the information is the point here.
I only refreshed on the first couple of pages so I don't remember if IR (internal relatedness) is talked about here too.
 

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From most breeders I hear that it is about balance. You must include some amount of line breeding if you want to solidify type and temperament within a line. But good breeders will also outcross within the breed to bring in traits their line is deficient in and to maintain good diversity. You run risks with a line breeding and risks with an outcross. It is about balancing those risks to make the best choices for a given breeding program. I do not believe any variety of poodles is as poorly off as some breeds like duck tollers, bernese mountain dogs, or dobermans. Some have an average COI of close to 50%.
 

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I think @Raindrops summarises it very well. I think it is also a good thing to consider that there is a difference between genetic diversity in an individual and in a breed. I think it is a very different conversation depending on the context.

For genetic diversity of a breed line bred litters themselves are not necessarily a problem. The popular sire is the danger, as we saw with Sir Gay. The thing is that in the first few generations you are not going to see that in the COI. Because that sire (or its offspring) are being used in outcross pairings. The problem is that so many other breeders are outcrossing to that line. It is then only a few generations down that the genetic bottle neck becomes clear. Genetic diversity within a breed can have a big impact on health and health testing as it is done today is not going to be able to prevent that because we don't have tests for all the conditions. Also, if 70 or 80 percent of a breed has a problematic gene then thats going to cause difficulties.

But this is big picture stuff, getting a puppy who is a few percentages over the breed average is not going to impact or be impacted by this.
 

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CB, this might be the thread. It's definitely one of the ones that got me so interested in learning and researching and branching out from there to all the places I've gone so far.
New info may be available since this is a decade ago, Yadda may have run into a personal downfall but the information is the point here.
I only refreshed on the first couple of pages so I don't remember if IR (internal relatedness) is talked about here too.

Awwww.... I miss Yadda. She sure took us in an interesting direction, eh? Deep into Poodle genetics.
So glad to see there are still some intelligent disciples of the science here.
I learn a lot from all you ladies. :)
 

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If you are interested in a deep dive into COI and other measurements--outlier index, internal relatedness, DLA statistics--I recommend BetterBred.com. As far as I can tell, this is a site designed for breeders to look at potential pairings and determine whether it suits their goals as far as genetic diversity. There is a free short course that explains many of the terms and markers. As a bonus, you will see many names that have been mentioned on this forum.
 
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