[WonderPup]

Another obseration and two questions
I'm noticing the difference in color between the two dogs you posted roxy. It could the the photos and lighting but to me those two dogs are two very different colors or shades however you want to put it. Both colors are lovely by the way but I really like the first dog's color better than the second.
Question 1) what is the definition of red in poodles. Let me explain - In those two photos the first dog fits what I would call red in a tibbie, the second would be what I would think of as (sorry Jen) chocolate. It does kind of look like the chocolate hubby got my for V-day. Or maybe even cocoa.... thats what it reminds me of. So to me, that second dog would be beautiful brown. obviously thats not the case, that is a red dog, so where does red become brown and where does apricot become red? Or is it just a matter of perspective? We had a dog come in the shop a couple weeks ago that was that really dark brown/red. The owner said she red, and she really was beautiful, but when I think of red, that color isn't what jumps to mind.

I am not ever considering a red poodle, though if one fell in my lap I wouldn't pass it up. There is one I saw for sale not to far away to go get that is already spayed and everything and is about the color of that bright red dog you posted. I thought about it for about half a second and decided it would really bother me if that color faded so pass.

Which brings me to question 2) Do you think brown dogs are as hard to photograph as black ones? We don't have a brown color like that in tibbies and I don't have any brown/chocolate colored dogs in any breed that I groom so I don't know. I AM looking at a brown puppy that hubby likes and I am on the fence about color wise. I am nervous that it will turn that cafe' color for one and two I want to do a lot of creative clipping so I want to be able to photograph the dog and have it show up in pictures? Any thoughts?

 

[roxy25]

The first picture would be just red like and “ Irish” red, the second picture would be considered a mahogany red. In the poodle books I have they describe red as being shades of red , mahogany, red brown given that the dog has a black nose ( preferred) . Brown dogs will have liver colored noses or brown colored noses just like the brown poodle my sister groomed.
Here is the info I was looking for, for you

“DO NOTS
Here are some serious DO NOT's that you should think about when breeding poodles.
DO NOT breed BROWN, CAFE AU LAIT, or SILVER BIEGE (Brown shades) to the following colors: RED, APRICOT, CREAM, or WHITE. Mixing of these colors will cause incorrect pigment on the points since the brown shades have liver colored points and Red, Apricot, Cream, and White should all have jet black points.
DO NOT breed REDS or APRICOTS to the following colors:
SILVER or BLUE. Breeding red or apricot to silver causes the color to fade even more than they already do as the silver and blue colors carries the fading gene. True I have bred blue to red before due to the fact that was what I had to work with at the time. But if you are truly working to deepen and darken reds and apricots and produce beautiful dogs that hold their color, you do not want to introduce any more of the fading gene into these already fading colors than you have to.
When breeding BROWNS, to keep them dark and reduce fading and taking the above rules into account, DO NOT breed to the following colors: BLUE, SILVER, CAFE AU LAIT, SILVER BEIGE. These colors once again will introduce the fading gene into your browns that you are trying to keep dark.
DOS
Here are some very important DOS that you should think about when breeding poodles.
Other than the absolute DO NOT's listed above, how you combine colors totally depends upon what your end goal color is in your breeding program.
When breeding REDS, to keep them dark, to reduce fading, and keeping the points nice and jet black, DO breed to the following colors: RED and BLACK. When using a black every few generations in a red breeding program you will hopefully help to keep dark points on the puppies and also to darken their color. HOWEVER, be very careful what colors are in the background of said black that you do not inadvertently introduce more of the fading gene. I would pick a black that has an all black only background or even better a black that has an all red and black only background (black/red hybrid). Many people consider a color bred red to have apricot in the background. This is because apricot is a dilute of red so still in the same color family. HOWEVER, do not forget that this apricot causes more fading gene to be present in your reds, so the fewer apricots used the better to keep the color.
When breeding BROWNS, to keep them dark and to reduce fading, DO breed to the following colors: BROWNS and BLACK. Breeding true blacks to a brown is a great way to help reduce the fading that we see in most browns. HOWEVER, once again be very careful what colors are in the background of said black that you do not inadvertently introduce more of the fading gene.

As for photographs you would need a hand flash or lots of light on dark dogs ( black) , IMO I do not think a brown dog will be as hard to photograph. I have taking pics of brown dogs and they come out pretty good. It depends what kind of setting you will be using example out door lighting or indoor ?

 

[thestars]

See the parents coat color and ask the breeder for pictures of the parent's parents. Also, ask to see the DNA coat color results. My Bindi's was done by VetGen, DNA Coat Color BBeeDD; is not affected by and does NOT carry the dilute gene, does not carry the brown gene, carries the cream-white-red-apricot with hidden black genes (Black Points), She has been color-bred red for many generations. It's ok in red to throw a black in once in a while but no brown, apricots, or creams. This table can help too. Adult hair will always be different then the puppy hair thats why you need to see the parents. http://www.vetgen.com/documents/CoatColorInheritanceChartbandd.pdf If the breeder has a web site they like to publish offspring of other litter so you can see the majority of color. Check out; http://www.bijoupoodles.com/Litter.html

 

[Pamela]

Well The thing is most breeders who have red standard breeders are just breeding for $$$ they are scamming people who have not done the research. They are not testing for the Fade gene so its a gamble , the pups can come out whatever way. They also do not have proven stock.

With the chocolates its the same They fade but there are more chocolate breeders with dogs that do not carry the fading gene.

Susan has a program she is working on with a few other breeders have you seen hogan ?

if not here he is , susan will be using him in her program.

here is some deep red standard poodles I am not sure if they really are this red still but I might drive to her kennel to see them with my own eyes

She has no problem for visitors coming to see her dogs she actually prefers it so it will be interesting if they really are that red cause i love how his coat looks.

Bijou kennels state they dont fade either and she is part of the ARPC
http://www.bijoupoodles.com/

http://www.apricotredpoodleclub.com/

Terry from farley D poodles has some reds that stay We have personally talked to him over the phone about his dogs. My sister calls him weekly he is our mentor along with susan.

Dona on his website is 13 years old and is still that color.
http://www.farleysd.com/dona.htm

what a beautiful red! my favorite!

 

[roxy25]

what a beautiful red! my favorite!

I know Pamela isn't he beautiful !

 

[thestars]

Brown dogs are as hard to photograph as blacks especially if they are real dark. Outside lighting is always easier to take pictures in. Bijou has new pictures of their Reds and Browns posted; http://www.bijoupoodles.com/Customers.html Color variations are nearly as vast as human hair color.

 

[thestars]

FYI - Susan said Hogan is neutered. She suggested Trigger from Harmony Hunting Poodles whom is "STUNNING." The same one ChickyChat used with Paris. Whom is a BBeeDD, same as my Bindi.

 

[roxy25]

FYI - Susan said Hogan is neutered. She suggested Trigger from Harmony Hunting Poodles whom is "STUNNING." The same one ChickyChat used with Paris. Whom is a BBeeDD, same as my Bindi.

At the time Susan was going to use him and he was not neutered. Yup I seen Trigger. Susan would like to use Enzo if he passes his health test and breed to one of her co owned girls.

 

[roxy25]

I forgot to say We did not test Enzo yet but I have a feeling he is dd I am hoping he is not but Susan said the female we might breed to in the future is DD so this will give the pups Dd. I have to work with on what we have now.

 

[katsdogworld]

I was just looking up colors today and came across this site:
http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/colorbreedinginpoodles.html
Roxy I see the information you pasted is from this site, but it's always nice to give credit to sourced material. These people have obviously taken a great deal of time to put together valuable information for all interested.

 

[roxy25]

I was just looking up colors today and came across this site:
http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/colorbreedinginpoodles.html
Roxy I see the information you pasted is from this site, but it's always nice to give credit to sourced material. These people have obviously taken a great deal of time to put together valuable information for all interested.

Thanks for posting the link , I just had the info on Microsoft word , I could not find the site again after I found it the first few times. I was not trying to take credit for that info sorry if anyone thought this.