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Discussion Starter #1
Hello there,

Does anyone have thoughts about Cerise Poodles? Cerise poodles - From her website, it looks like she is very involved in showing her poodles, it says standards, but also mentions toy poodles. (I am looking for a standard) There is a lot of information under some of her poodles, but I can't understand the abbreviations and lingo - I'm guessing it refers to the types of awards won...

Thanks everyone. I am learning so much from every breeder I speak with.
 

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I have no personal experience but looked at the website out of curiosity. Their program looks great in almost every respect, but I did see something that would be a deal breaker for me. It says all pet puppies are early spayed/neutered before they go home. There's substantial evidence for why this is a bad idea especially in larger dogs. Even people willing to neuter at 6-8 months still wouldn't typically do it this young. Possibly you could talk to her and come to an alternate agreement, but otherwise I would personally look elsewhere.
 

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Hi,

I haven't looked at the website but I can third the red flag on early spay/neuter. I expect it's to make sure that their pups don't get bred regardless of registration status. That's understandable but it ignores what's being learned about the increased health risks with early spay/neuter.

This will seem like a small study but it's part of several years, multiple breeds worth of data. There's a lot of information online. Just search for "risks of early spay/neuter poodle".

A link to a recent study:

Excerpt:

Main findings Standard Poodles. The complete dataset totaled about 350 cases evenly split between males and females. Within each gender, 70-80 percent were neutered or spayed.

Hip dysplasia does occasionally occur in gonadally intact males and females (up to 2-3 percent). There is a modest, non-significant increase in this joint disorder in males neutered at < 6 mo. No other joint disorder increased with early spaying or neutering however, which is a contrast to our published work on Labs, Goldens and German Shepherds (doi’s: Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers and onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/vms3.34/full)

A cancer of concern is lymphoma, which was not diagnosed in either male or female intact dogs but was diagnosed in about a quarter of males neutered during the first year: a significant finding (p < 0.01). There was a modest trend for females spayed before one year to have the cancer (non-significant).

Addison’s Disease did not occur in any intact males or females, but females are at risk for this disease when spayed before 6 mo., where over 10 percent were diagnosed with this disease: a significant occurrence (p< 0.02). Males neutered before 1 year seem to have about half the risk of females for this disease (nonsignificant).

Bottom line: for males, consider delaying neutering until they reach the age of two to avoid the increased risk of lymphoma, hip dysplasia and Addison’s Disease. For females, delaying spaying females until they are at least a year old seems to avoid increasing the risk of Addison’s Disease, and waiting until 2 years avoids the possible increased risk of lymphoma. Delaying spaying does not appear to increase the risk of mammary cancer, and even leaving a female intact raises the risk to only 4 percent.

Maybe the breeder isn't aware of where the science is leading, so if you're interested in a poodle from them, it might prove to be a beneficial discussion for you both.
 

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Personally I would speak to her and discuss the early spay/neutering. Perhaps the web page is old and has not been updated to current standards where it is recommended to wait until the dog has fully matured and that the growth plates have closed. Years ago the AKC had one registration type and a breeder could not stipulate on the papers that the dog must be neutered. Today a breeder can discriminate that the puppies cannot be bred or their off spring will be registered. I think only animal shelters believe in early spay now. Most vets are getting on board with later spaying too. This is why I wonder if the website is just n to updated. For me if breeder insists on early spay/neuter this would be a deal breaker and I'd walk.
 

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I hope it's not hijacking this thread to ask if this is true for miniature poodles too.
I think the key on neutering/spaying is that the dog has fully matured and that the growth plates have closed. For larger dogs I've read 18/24 months. I do know that toys mature earlier and I would guess miniatures do also but I don't know the recommended ages for those.
 

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I hope it's not hijacking this thread to ask if this is true for miniature poodles too.
What Mufar said, but generally 12 months is considered a safe age for minis. Limited studies have not shown the same disease risk increases in minis and toys. But most people prefer to wait to be on the safe side. There are also behavioral benefits to waiting, though these may be limited to males. Most minis have their height growth completed by 8-10 months, though they still have some filling out to do. I know my 11 month old still looks like a gangly puppy and I expect his chest to drop at some point.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hi,

I haven't looked at the website but I can third the red flag on early spay/neuter. I expect it's to make sure that their pups don't get bred regardless of registration status. That's understandable but it ignores what's being learned about the increased health risks with early spay/neuter.

This will seem like a small study but it's part of several years, multiple breeds worth of data. There's a lot of information online. Just search for "risks of early spay/neuter poodle".

A link to a recent study:

Excerpt:

Main findings Standard Poodles. The complete dataset totaled about 350 cases evenly split between males and females. Within each gender, 70-80 percent were neutered or spayed.

Hip dysplasia does occasionally occur in gonadally intact males and females (up to 2-3 percent). There is a modest, non-significant increase in this joint disorder in males neutered at < 6 mo. No other joint disorder increased with early spaying or neutering however, which is a contrast to our published work on Labs, Goldens and German Shepherds (doi’s: Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers and onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/vms3.34/full)

A cancer of concern is lymphoma, which was not diagnosed in either male or female intact dogs but was diagnosed in about a quarter of males neutered during the first year: a significant finding (p < 0.01). There was a modest trend for females spayed before one year to have the cancer (non-significant).

Addison’s Disease did not occur in any intact males or females, but females are at risk for this disease when spayed before 6 mo., where over 10 percent were diagnosed with this disease: a significant occurrence (p< 0.02). Males neutered before 1 year seem to have about half the risk of females for this disease (nonsignificant).

Bottom line: for males, consider delaying neutering until they reach the age of two to avoid the increased risk of lymphoma, hip dysplasia and Addison’s Disease. For females, delaying spaying females until they are at least a year old seems to avoid increasing the risk of Addison’s Disease, and waiting until 2 years avoids the possible increased risk of lymphoma. Delaying spaying does not appear to increase the risk of mammary cancer, and even leaving a female intact raises the risk to only 4 percent.

Maybe the breeder isn't aware of where the science is leading, so if you're interested in a poodle from them, it might prove to be a beneficial discussion for you both.
Thank you! I didn't realize it was best to wait that long. This is good to know. those seem like significant health concerns.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks, the number is out of service, so I sent an email. Hopefully this is not a bad beginning!
 

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So sorry, but I would not even write them to question the spay/neuter. If the information on the website was out of the parameters or what we consider best practice, I would look elsewhere.
 

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Hello there,

Does anyone have thoughts about Cerise Poodles? Cerise poodles - From her website, it looks like she is very involved in showing her poodles, it says standards, but also mentions toy poodles. (I am looking for a standard) There is a lot of information under some of her poodles, but I can't understand the abbreviations and lingo - I'm guessing it refers to the types of awards won...

Thanks everyone. I am learning so much from every breeder I speak with.
[3spoos
I had a male standard from Cerise Poodles. My husband and I were devastated when our first SPoo died suddenly and from a mysterious ailment. We were READY for a puppy and, unfortunately, did not do the “due diligence” regarding breeders. Cerise Poodles is a nice breeder but the whole business of early spay/neuter is terribly WRONG. My beloved Sidney was neutered at 9 weeks (we got him at 11weeks). The early neuter caused him to be “extra tall” (27-28” at the withers) and caused him to have painful hip problems in his “later” years. I had to have him put down at 11 1/2 years because he was in so much pain: trouble with stairs, couldn’t get into the car without being lifted). The last 6 months his daily walk consisted of a half block walk. That is not right.
I don’t know why the breeder continues to do the early spay/neuter unless it’s “easier” because the breeder can take care of all the limited registration paperwork without waiting for the owner to send a certificate of spay or neuter later (like a year later). Think hard and ask other breeders and vets about the pros and cons of early spay/neuter. I currently has 3 standards (girls) where spayed at 13-14 months. AFTER the growth plates in the long bones had closed. Something to think about.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Oh! I am so sorry to hear what you and your dogs went through. I had been reading about the dangers of early spay/neuter and hearing your story, is just heart breaking. Yes, the consequences of this practice is not right. I think you and Kontiki are right, best to leave this breeder alone!

Thank you everyone for your observations and to Jeannette for sharing your story. I couldn't agree to get a dog knowing that something done, would later cause pain.
 

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Jeannette, this is heartbreaking. I'm so sorry you went through this. Times have changed to a degree, and in the past when you got Sidney it may not have been so well known that pediatric neutering was detrimental. I'm sure you gave him a wonderful life. If you don't mind, do you have a good photo of him? I've never seen a spoo that was neutered that young, and I am curious about the growth you describe. It is what I would expect, but I've never seen a good example.
 
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