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Discussion Starter #1
hi guys ,
I am currently shopping for a mini poodle and found one breeder that I liked( wanderlust poodles). They breed standards and just starting out minis now so this will be the first litter. However, the mother has the cddy gene, 1 copy of it. How concerned should I be?is this a big red flag?
I know this test is newer
 

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Based on the information I've read from UC Davis, I would not consider a CDDY positive dog a good breeding candidate:
"Dogs with N/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. They will transmit this CDDY variant to 50% of their offspring."
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Based on the information I've read from UC Davis, I would not consider a CDDY positive dog a good breeding candidate:
"Dogs with N/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. They will transmit this CDDY variant to 50% of their offspring."
Ah that breaks my heart:(
 

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Cowpony is right but I'm curious if the breeder told you this or if you found the results on OFA yourself. It won't change the results or the risk but it may be worth asking the breeder if you found it yourself.


ETA I found the info on their website and linked to PawPrint to view the results, assuming I chose the right poodle. They seem to be pretty committed to testing so I'd consider asking the breeder about it.

If I found the right girl, here's the OFA link for her.

 

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I believe wanderlust has a good reputation (I'd have to check to be sure but no time right now) so I would for sure ask them about it. I would still consider the litter based on what they say. The mutation is not fully understood and if the frequency is as high as UC Davis found, then carriers are still breeding candidates but attempts should be made to continue their lines with non carrier offspring. As long as the sire is clear and the dam shows no indication of short legs, I would consider it potentially acceptable if the breeder has put thought into the pairing.
 

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Cowpony is right but I'm curious if the breeder told you this or if you found the results on OFA yourself. It won't change the results or the risk but it may be worth asking the breeder if you found it yourself.


ETA I found the info on their website and linked to PawPrint to view the results, assuming I chose the right poodle. They seem to be pretty committed to testing so I'd consider asking the breeder about it.

If I found the right girl, here's the OFA link for her.

Thank you for your reply! Yes that’s the girl and I also liked that about the breeder. The fact that Thai information isn’t hidden and is out there
Cowpony is right but I'm curious if the breeder told you this or if you found the results on OFA yourself. It won't change the results or the risk but it may be worth asking the breeder if you found it yourself.


ETA I found the info on their website and linked to PawPrint to view the results, assuming I chose the right poodle. They seem to be pretty committed to testing so I'd consider asking the breeder about it.

If I found the right girl, here's the OFA link for her.

that’s exactly what I liked about her is the fact that that grays isn’t even required but she had it done. But I talked to someone from a poodle club and she brought up the fact that there isn’t a chic number? I do see ofa testing and don’t quite understand if her lacking chic number would be a big deal?
and yes that’s the right poodle! She provided me with the links to ofa for both parents as well
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO dad
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO mom
 

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Thank you for your reply! Yes that’s the girl and I also liked that about the breeder. The fact that Thai information isn’t hidden and is out there


that’s exactly what I liked about her is the fact that that grays isn’t even required but she had it done. But I talked to someone from a poodle club and she brought up the fact that there isn’t a chic number? I do see ofa testing and don’t quite understand if her lacking chic number would be a big deal?
and yes that’s the right poodle! She provided me with the links to ofa for both parents as well
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO dad
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO mom
Sorry didn’t realize that my reply that I was typing while at work was still there! Ignore the fist part haha
 

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I believe wanderlust has a good reputation (I'd have to check to be sure but no time right now) so I would for sure ask them about it. I would still consider the litter based on what they say. The mutation is not fully understood and if the frequency is as high as UC Davis found, then carriers are still breeding candidates but attempts should be made to continue their lines with non carrier offspring. As long as the sire is clear and the dam shows no indication of short legs, I would consider it potentially acceptable if the breeder has put thought into the pairing.
Thank you for your reply! From what I’m seeing not a lot of breeders are even testing for this so in my eyes even if I went to another breeder this could still be a risk unless they tested negative. She provided me with ofa links to both parents and both don’t have chic numbers? Would that be a big deal? I added the links in the reply above if you’d like to take a look
 

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I would ask why the breeder chose not to go for CHIC certification, but I wouldn't write off a breeder who does hip and several genetic health tests without pursuing CHIC. Most of the CHIC tests are phenotypic rather than genotypic. That is, they measure whatever was happening physically with the dog the day the test was done. Bad hips usually show up early; it should be apparent the dog has issues between 1-2 years. However, stuff like sebaceous adenitis and thyroid issues may not manifest until the dog is in late middle age, after being retired from breeding. Therefore, some breeders think the CHIC certification isn't worth the cost.
 

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The latest testing was done on her in Nov and Dec 2020 and the last of the results published just 2 days ago. If she's going to get the CHIC certification, that may just be in the works still.

A CHIC number means that the breeder has done the testing outlined here


- they don't have to be passing results, just have to be done - and the dog has been permanently identified by microchip or tattoo

from CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

CHIC Program Policies
Breed-Specific

Core to the CHIC philosophy is the realization that each breed has different health concerns. Not all diseases have known modes of inheritance, nor do all diseases have screening tests. Some screening tests are based on a phenotypic evaluation, others on genetic testing. With all these variables, a key element of the CHIC Program is to customize or tailor the requirements to the needs of each breed. These unique requirements are established through input from the parent club prior to the breed’s entry into the CHIC Program.


Breed-specific requirements typically consist of the inherited diseases that are of the greatest concern and for which some screening tests are available. Each parent club also drives specific screening protocols. As an example, one parent club may allow cardiac exams to be performed by a general practitioner. Another parent club may require the exam to be performed by a board-certified cardiologist. A club may also use the CHIC Program to maintain information on other health issues for anecdotal purposes. Later, as screening tests become available, the disease may be added to the breed-specific requirements.

Permanent Identification

Regardless of breed, each dog must be permanently identified in order to have test results included in CHIC. Permanent identification may be in the form of a microchip or tattoo.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
A CHIC number means that the breeder has done the testing outlined here


- they don't have to be passing results, just have to be done - and the dog has been permanently identified by microchip or tattoo

from CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

CHIC Program Policies
Breed-Specific

Core to the CHIC philosophy is the realization that each breed has different health concerns. Not all diseases have known modes of inheritance, nor do all diseases have screening tests. Some screening tests are based on a phenotypic evaluation, others on genetic testing. With all these variables, a key element of the CHIC Program is to customize or tailor the requirements to the needs of each breed. These unique requirements are established through input from the parent club prior to the breed’s entry into the CHIC Program.


Breed-specific requirements typically consist of the inherited diseases that are of the greatest concern and for which some screening tests are available. Each parent club also drives specific screening protocols. As an example, one parent club may allow cardiac exams to be performed by a general practitioner. Another parent club may require the exam to be performed by a board-certified cardiologist. A club may also use the CHIC Program to maintain information on other health issues for anecdotal purposes. Later, as screening tests become available, the disease may be added to the breed-specific requirements.

Permanent Identification

Regardless of breed, each dog must be permanently identified in order to have test results included in CHIC. Permanent identification may be in the form of a microchip or tattoo.
Got it! So much information it gets confusing at times but this makes sense.. so it’s best to pass on those who don’t have chic number?
 

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Not necessarily. They have done the requisite tests, and additionally have done testing beyond the CHIC requirements. If you look at the individual tests done on her on OFA, you'll see that those are done.

In all the looking I've done at breeder sites and OFA over the last 8 or so months, plenty of breeders do some testing, plenty of breeders do the OFA/CHIC required testing, and some go well over that bar. Not everyone goes the extra step to get the certification, even when they've done the testing.

I like seeing the certification but if they've done the testing, the certification doesn't affect the results in any way.
 

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Not necessarily. They have done the requisite tests, and additionally have done testing beyond the CHIC requirements. If you look at the individual tests done on her on OFA, you'll see that those are done.

In all the looking I've done at breeder sites and OFA over the last 8 or so months, plenty of breeders do some testing, plenty of breeders do the OFA/CHIC required testing, and some go well over that bar. Not everyone goes the extra step to get the certification, even when they've done the testing.

I like seeing the certification but if they've done the testing, the certification doesn't affect the results in any way.
that makes sense ! Thank you for your help!
Overall I like the breeder.. the only thing that is slightly concerning is the cddy gene that the mom has and it’s unknown whether the dad has it as well. However , from searching online I see that not many breeders provide that test information at all so it makes me wonder if that is kind of unavoidable to some degree
 

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Something's confused here, probably me :).
If this is the dam of the litter you'd be considering

BIS RBPIS UGRCH ANNA-ASH HEAD IN THE CLOUDS
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

then these links you added are to a completely different dog's sire (and they both link to the same dog fyi).

These are her sire and dam according to OFA
Sire/Dam (Click name for info)RegistrationBirthdateSexRelationHIPSELBOWCONGENITAL CARDIACCHONDRODYSTROPHY (CDDY)CHONDRODYSPLASIA (CDPA)DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHYEYESGM2-GANGLIOSIDOSISNEONATAL ENCEPHALOPATHY W/SEIZURESOSTEOCHONDRODYSPLASIARCD4 PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHYPATELLAPROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHYVON WILLEBRANDS
SISCO'S DREAM DESIGN AT ANNAASHPR18964402Jan 6 2016FDamPO-25366G24F-PIPO-EL3725F24-PIPO-CA5218/24F/P-VPIPO-EYE6094/26F-VPIPO-PA5504/24F/P-VPI
GOODELIFES SURE SHOTPR19831002Jan 31 2017MSireGOODNORMALPO-CA3819/13M/P-PI
 
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from searching online I see that not many breeders provide that test information at all so it makes me wonder if that is kind of unavoidable to some degree
As mentioned, it is a newer test so it's going to take a while for it to become more common. With any of this testing, the hope is to breed out these serious conditions without adding something else unintentionally.

I'm definitely not skilled in evaluating conformation, but Denali's legs don't look short, so that's on the positive side.
 

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As mentioned, it is a newer test so it's going to take a while for it to become more common. With any of this testing, the hope is to breed out these serious conditions without adding something else unintentionally.

I'm definitely not skilled in evaluating conformation, but Denali's legs don't look short, so that's on the positive side.
thank you for all your help! I filled out an application and hopefully will get the puppy soon!:)
 

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I'm just seeing this thread now but I would think that one copy of the gene is probably fine as long as one of the parents is clear. I've spoken with two breeders recently that were telling me that many poodles carry this gene but the dogs don't develop IVDD. I'm not sure how true that is but two of them mentioned that to me, one of them their dog did not have the gene anyway so it really was of no benefit for them to lie. The other breeder both parents had one copy of the gene. I backed away from that because it was both parents. Also, I had a poodle with IVDD. He had two copies of the gene (I was able to get him tested years later, the test wasn't available when he was younger and diagnosed). They say that dogs that end up with IVDD are very long with short legs. My dog did not have short legs but he was very long like a dachshund. I think that's a telltale sign you would want to avoid.
 

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I would think that one copy of the gene is probably fine as long as one of the parents is clear.
Sometimes, yes. In this case the inheritance of CDDY and CDPA is a bit more complex than just a 50/50 chance since it's not a recessive gene.
From PawPrint Genetics

Chondrodystrophy with Intervertebral Disc Disease Risk Factor (CDDY with IVDD):

Intervertebral disc disease associated with the CFA12 FGF4 mutation is inherited in an Autosomal Dominant manner meaning that a dog only needs to inherit one copy of the mutated gene to be at an increased risk of developing the disease. Each pup that is born to an affected dog has at least a 50% chance of inheriting one copy of the CFA12 FGF4 gene mutation. Reliable genetic testing is important for determining breeding practices. Because symptoms of IVDD do not appear until adulthood and because the mutation shows Incomplete Penetrance, genetic testing should be performed before breeding. In order to eliminate this mutation from breeding lines and to avoid the potential of producing affected pups, breeding of dogs known to have the mutation is not recommended....Shortened limbs associated with the CFA12 FGF4 mutation are inherited in a semi-dominant manner meaning that dogs with a single copy of the mutation display an intermediate leg length between the normal length legs of dogs that do not inherit the mutation and dogs with two copies of the mutation which display the shortest leg length associated with this mutation.

The dam is listed as N/CDDY on OFA which means
►Chondrodystrophy (CDDY):
  • Dogs with N/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. They will transmit this CDDY variant to 50% of their offspring. Matings with N/N genotype dogs are predicted to produce 50% shorter-legged puppies at risk for intervertebral disc herniation.
I can't find a bit that I'd read which suggested that if the affected dogs legs were of normal length they might be considered for breeding.

Some stats from OFA. The test for CDDY has only been available since 2017. I left in the conditions above CDDY to get an idea of percentage of affected vs tested

POODLEEvaluations through December 2020
RegistryRankEvaluationsAbnormalNormalCarrierEquivocal
ADVANCED CARDIAC
49​
515​
0.4%​
98.1%​
0.0%​
1.6%​
AGOUTI
--​
4​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
BAER HEARING TEST
--​
12​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
BASIC CARDIAC
1​
270​
1.1%​
98.9%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
BROWN (TYRP 1)
--​
4​
0.0%​
75.0%​
25.0%​
0.0%​
CANINE MULTIFOCAL RETINOPATHY
--​
5​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
CATARACTS
--​
7​
0.0%​
71.4%​
28.6%​
0.0%​
CENTRONUCLEAR MYOPATHY
--​
1​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
CHONDRODYSPLASIA (CDPA)
--​
48​
0.0%​
100.0%​
0.0%​
0.0%​
CHONDRODYSTROPHY (CDDY)
3​
89​
11.2%​
76.4%​
12.4%​
0.0%​
 

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Thanks Rose n Poos for posting this! This is very helpful. I wasn't sure what I should be looking for and it does seem like I should not get a puppy that has any copies of this gene. IVDD is truly an awful disease and would not want to have another dog go through that again.
 

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The OP discussed this with the breeder at length and felt comfortable proceeding. The dam of the pups they were interested in carries one copy but appears unaffected.

This particular breeder seems very invested in producing healthy poodles.

In general, it requires careful consideration. In any breeding, the genes the puppies inherit can't be known unless the puppy is genetically tested and that's not usually done by the breeder unless a puppy is being considered for breeding and then not usually until close to breeding age.

An owner can always have a puppy or dog tested on their own but they are yours at that point, come what may.

So, yes, if you want to avoid this specific issue then you should make sure that sire and dam are tested for this and are both clear, that is, no copies of the gene. Look for N/N results on this test.
 
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