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Hello, I am interested in getting a Standard Poodle and I have read about Cantope Kennels in Ontario, Canada. They seem like they do all health testing, provide the buyer with alot of information, including their book they wrote on poodles and how to train them. However, I am aware they have alot of litters. I am interested to hear about peoples experience with this breeder and the dogs that have come from there. It seems like the only thing I have seen bad about them so far is the high volume of litters. The only forums I see they are mentioned is quite old, like 10 years ago. So I would like to hear from more recent stories.

I have put a deposit in with them and am considering loosing it now. I did research before sending but didn't, I guess, process the wrongness of having so many litters a year until the night after. I am unsure if I should get the dog and take as a lesson learned or just give up the money to not support the high volume breeding.

Would love to hear back!
 

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I passed on them because of the crazy high volumes - I think they had something like 45 puppies available when I was looking last year?! Socialization was a major priority for me and I couldnt see how they could possibly socialize that many puppies.

That being said, I have seen a few people on here happy with them. Countryboy I think owns one?
 

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I don't have any experience with Cantope. But I would never never never buy from a high-volume breeder.

My girl Cammie had one litter (I was working with an experienced breeder). She raised her puppies in her own home with a huge amount of love and support from me. It was amazing to see how her natural instincts took over -- she knew exactly what to do. But it was also amazing to see how she looked to me for love and support. I am convinced that the security and support that she enjoyed enabled her to pass a happy confidence on to her puppies. The first 8 weeks of your puppy's life are important. You don't want them raised by a stressed out mama who lives in a kennel and never really has the love that every poodle deserves.

Give Cherie at Arreau a call.
 

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Hi and Welcome!

I'm not advocating either way and personally prefer a small volume breeder myself but here's a recentish thread that two PF members and Cantope owners participated in.
Since you have a deposit down, consider sending a private query to each and ask about their experience with Cantope.

If I could see how they operate in person, and they do freely invite prospective owners to visit, that would help me decide, especially if they meet most everything else of my criteria.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I don't have any experience with Cantope. But I would never never never buy from a high-volume breeder.

My girl Cammie had one litter (I was working with an experienced breeder). She raised her puppies in her own home with a huge amount of love and support from me. It was amazing to see how her natural instincts took over -- she knew exactly what to do. But it was also amazing to see how she looked to me for love and support. I am convinced that the security and support that she enjoyed enabled her to pass a happy confidence on to her puppies. The first 8 weeks of your puppy's life are important. You don't want them raised by a stressed out mama who lives in a kennel and never really has the love that every poodle deserves.

Give Cherie at Arreau a call.
Thank you for the reply! I have heard of Cherie but she is not having puppies this year. I spoke with her a year ago and all the puppies she had were gone to homes already.
 

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Hi and Welcome!

I'm not advocating either way and personally prefer a small volume breeder myself but here's a recentish thread that two PF members and Cantope owners participated in.
Since you have a deposit down, consider sending a private query to each and ask about their experience with Cantope.

If I could see how they operate in person, and they do freely invite prospective owners to visit, that would help me decide, especially if they meet most everything else of my criteria.
Thank you!
 

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Cantope has facilities and staff that one-at-a-time breeders can only dream of. And they've got a happy lot of dogs. That make good pets, hunters, swimmers, divers, fancies... some great in the ring at rally or show, or to maybe even chase a rabbit with the sighthounds.

No stressed out mamas in this house. ;)

"Cantope puppies are well socialized. They spend their first four weeks with their mother in my bedroom and then mom and pups move into the living area of our house where they see people every day and get lots of affection and attention. Our resident cats, BlackJack & Bingo, have a very important job – they teach our puppies to respect and live with cats."
 

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I have not checked in to Poodle forum for a couple weeks, but got notice of a PM asking about my experience with Cantope.

For the purpose of aiding future searches, I’ll post my reply in this thread.

See below.

Hi, congratulations on putting a deposit down for a puppy, that's very exciting. I have a high degree of confidence that you will be very happy with Cantope Poodles. My wife and I had a very positive experience. These people live and breathe poodles. Have you visited the facility? I believe that the amount of resources they put into their operation, and the high number of poodles that are in their breeding program allows them to produce a high number of litters, while following best breeding practices.

I don't speak up too much about Cantope on this forum, because some people believe that if you produce a high number of litters, you must be a puppy mill, only concerned about profits. I know I won't change the opinions of some people, so I don't get into it.

Anyway, my Cantope poodle is happy and healthy. I enjoyed every step when dealing with Cantope.

If you have more specific questions, don't hesitate to ask. I will do my best to answer.

Be happy!

Ryan

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Ryan is way more polite than I.
There are people in Ontario looking for Poodles. Too many in here love to look down their noses at Cantope. Only 'cos there's nothing snarkier than the world of Poodle Breeding. Specially from some of the members here who think they know something about Southern Ontario breeding, but in fact, know NOTHING. Sherry or Cherie would love to sell you a dog... if they have one... but sometimes they DON'T.
In which case, someone who is acquainted with Breeders here can let you in on who has good dogs and who doesn't.
I was asked about Cantope, I told you about Cantope.
Cherie lives in Southern Ontario... she can tell you about breeders.
I live in Southern Ontario... I can tell you about breeders. And I have done.
So I want all here who are sniveling about too many litters to tell me... how many is too many, and why!! And I will be demanding an answer.
Prove your constant background slander or you can shut the hell up...

"I've heard" that they have many litters will not get you off the hook. I will demand to know who you heard it from and where.
If you can't prove it in here, don't say it...
 

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Lookingforpoodle,

You asked me about a good breeder. If you're genuinely looking for information, I'll try to help you.
_

[Note from Super Mod PTP to Countryboy: Profanity in this comment was edited out; this is a violation of Forum Rule 2.1. Please use civility and respect when debating sensitive topics.]

Unless I missed something egregious, I don't believe any offense was intended with the creation of this thread. It was a sincere inquiry from someone hoping to bring home a poodle puppy and wanting to do their homework first. Thank you for respecting the forum rules, welcoming a new member, and sharing your positive firsthand experience with the breeder in question.
-PeggyTheParti
 

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Countryboy.... I dont think it can be questioned IF they have a lot of litters. On their page right now, for "mid July to mid August" they have 5 upcoming litters advertised. That's a 1 month period or so, and if we use their stated figures of an average of 8 puppies per litter, 40 puppies. That's a high volume of puppies! I cant personally see how all of those puppies could be raised in the house as your earlier quote stated, but maybe they are. I personally don't have a strict cutoff, but 5 litters per year would be on the high end for my interest in a breeder, and that only if they were keeping some of the dogs in guardian homes.

The question, which I cant answer, though I am also in Southern Ontario, is if they produce good, healthy, well socialized puppies. I dont know, as they didnt meet my criteria for a breeder, and I didnt go past a "holy **** that's a lot of puppies" moment, looking at their available list when I was looking. Other people have different criteria, and that's okay, so long as they are ok with their criteria.
 

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Ryan is way more polite than I.
..
In my experience, multiple exclamation marks, profanity, and personal insults posted on the internet don’t change people’s opinions.

I’d encourage anybody to take all the comments in this thread, including my own, with a grain of salt. If at all possible, take the time to visit the facility, and meet the owners and the staff, and then come to your own conclusions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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I think the volume of puppies produced is a huge risk. With multiple litters you lose the quality of the socialization and training that a breeder can give the pups. I’m not referring to cantope bc I’m not familiar with them but I passed on a lot of breeders having multiple litters in my search. I waited longer to find one that spent time with the pups as family. I’m thankful I didn’t jump right away for a pup and waited until I knew it was the perfect one. Our girls been home a short time but she’s a very well adjusted pup. Even whines to go outside, which I love bc that just cut my training down that much further. So the longer wait was totally worth it.
 

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You see a sincere inquiry... I see the same old dogwhistle of Cantope and too many litters. It's been happening in here since the forum was established. And it's not just one. Theres the original request for information, which I answered. Then there was another request for clarification.... along with a PM.... both questioning my best advice. You people, in effect, are denying my knowledge of the Cantope facilities without knowing the whole story. That makes you people idiots.
If you've not visited the facilities, or at least read Diane's story of how her pups were raised, you don't know what you're talking about. You're simply 'going with the crowd' who loves to bash Cantope. And being directly contradicted by the information on her site.

Ryan - I've been dealing with this slander for too many years. It's time to call people out. You can go along to get along if you like. I don't listen to the opinions of ignorant people.

And PtP - You want to take down the text from me that you don't like?? Well that's ok... no problem. Since you've set the precedent, I will call out ANY trashing of Cantope from featherbrains. At that point, you will remove it.

If you don't, you will be spreading slander and will be dealt with accordingly.
 

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Countryboy - I am continuing this, just because I am irritated by your tone. If you hadn't responded back accusing people of slander, I would not have bothered to put this effort in, but I really dislike being told what I can say, or being threatened. Also - based on looking at the posters history, I think you are mistaken about whether she originally asked you for advice. She seems to have only posted twice, in this thread. The other thread you are thinking of is likely another poster. There have been a lot of "I want a puppy posts" lately, so it's an easy mistake to make.

Please, feel free to tell me how I am "slandering". It's not slander to list what is on their website, or visible online. First - slander, is, by definition, spoken. I'm writing, so this would be defamation or libel, if it met the other criteria. Secondly, defamation is not relevant if the statements are true. "In the common-law provinces (all provinces except Québec), truth is an absolute defence. If the defamatory material can be shown to be substantially true, the defendant will not be held liable, even if the defendant published the material in order to harm the person defamed." (Defamation in Canada | The Canadian Encyclopedia). We are both in Ontario, speaking about an Ontario breeder on a site hosted in Toronto, so I would assume Ontario common law would apply. Repeating information shown from Cantope's website and own sources, and providing an opinion on their contents, is not, therefore, slander. Calling someone a featherbrain, might count as defamation (if I could prove material harm, which I can't).

A puppy is a huge and important purchase for most people, with a lot of emotional impact. People SHOULD be careful with what puppy they choose, and people WILL judge the quality of the breeder by what is available online. Many people (myself included) prefer that breeding quality poodles is not a commercial pursuit, and will negatively view a breeder that appears to be making their living off of producing puppies. The only way around that sort of judgement is to a) not make a living breeding puppies, b) lie about how many puppies you produce, or c) be okay with people criticizing the volume of puppies produced, so long as the breeder is confident that the puppies are well taken care of. I would personally prefer option A or C.

Based on what you and RKJ have said, they are probably far from the worst breeders this poster could get a puppy from, but they are also not a breeder I would die on a hill defending... They may produce nice, well socialized, confident dogs. I don't know, I haven't met their dogs.

I do know that they wouldn't meet a lot of people's criteria, which often includes a smaller scale breeder and/or proof the breeder "Does something" other than producing puppies with their dogs.

Assuming 40 puppies every 1.5 months, at $2000 a puppy, that would be $640,000 /year gross income just in poodle puppies! What they charge isn't listed, I'm assuming $1500-2500. Obviously, less operation costs like staffing, food, vetrinary costs, etc, but it sure is a lot of money, and worth some scrutiny, and that volume definitely won't pass unquestioned by people who don't believe in for-profit breeding.

Here is the video Cantope posts as the "tour of the nursery".
I see relatively happy, well groomed poodles in small crates, so many of them that they have several crates with two poodles in a single crate. If I were Cantope, and I wanted to allay fears about breeding practices, I would pan their videos of their litters to show the rest of the room, and provide more videos of the socialization they list on their website. Not doing so isn't proof they don't do these things, but it makes it harder to prove they do these things from my living room.

Other criticisms Cantope is likely to recieve:

Do they title all their dogs before breeding? It doesn't look like they title all of them, or even most of them, their "titled dogs" list on their website is from 2015. I checked Cantope on Canuck dogs, and can't find any dogs listed with CKC championships/conformation points from 2019 or 2020. I found some records on UKC for 2019, it looks like one or two of the dogs owned by them was being shown UKC, i didn't see a championship record, but I don't know the UKC site well. They are also listed mostly as being shown in the "non licensed puppy class" whatever that means.

Do they do dog sports with their dogs before breeding? No, not most of them from what I can see. They seem to have done some obedience/rally novice (not titling) with CKC prior to 2015, but I can't find anything more recent than that for a dog owned by Diane Welsh on Canuck dogs.

For my $2000 in poodle money, I got a dog from health tested CKC champion parents, raised with very involved young children and their friends and a baby visiting, raised in the kitchen and sitting on the kids laps in the living room to watch TV, partially potty trained with outdoor access to the yard already knowing "come", already walking on leash nicely, socialized by going to a grooming salon multiple times, school, and hockey games, socialized with other adult dogs of several breeds, with lots of videos showing exactly how the puppies were being raised. I'll put that level of quality against Cantope any day, "nice facilities" and "nice people" or not. Other people might not like my dog's breeder, as she doesn't have cats, doesn't temperament test, and doesn't do performance sports with her dogs. Diffferent people have different criteria, and that's OK.

If someone wishes to buy from Cantope - fine. I would suggest they visit the facilities before they buy the puppy, or put down a deposit - and this goes for any breeder. As I think we all know, you shouldn't take the word of anything on the web, especially a breeder's own site, to be true or accurate without some attempt to verify for yourself the information contained therein.
 

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Hi, this is Vita, speaking as Super Moderator.

Issues of breeding practices have always been a trigger for many members and hot spot on PF and other dog forums.

I need to time to think about all that's been said, either overtly or covertly, since there is at bare minimum, validity to one degree or another made by all participating members, and to collaborate with our other two Super Mods, Parti The Poodle and Cowpony.

For now at least, I'm temporarily locking this thread to give it a cooling off period.

EDIT, 7/5/2020. Please my response of the next page, Post 21.
 
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