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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I've been searching some on offa.org and have noticed that some top breeders, several of which were recommended here, don't seem to have uniform testing. One dog will have hips and cerf, another will have hips and SA, while yet another will have hips, elbows, thyroid, SA and cerf. Is it possible that some are listed and other aren't? I know it's the breeder's discretion whether the results are listed online or not, but why have just part of the tests listed?


So far the tests listed are:

Hips
Elbow
Patella
Sebaceous Adenitis
DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY
NEONATAL ENCEPHALOPATHY
Cardiac
Cerf
Thyroid
Von Willibrands

Do standard poodles need all of these? How often should they be done? I'm especially interested in how often Cerf should be done and how it's reported. For example one sire that I really like says "Tested:06" What does that mean?
 

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Hmm, I'm no expert on Standard Poodle testing. But I know patellas are an issue in the minis/ toys, not standards.

As for CERF. It's recommended to do breeding dogs yearly. However, it is possible to pass the test without actually registering the result I believe. The breeder I am most likely going with CERF'd her girl but hasn't submitted it to a registry. So as long as she provides me with the official document proving she passed, I'm good.

As for full listing - you have to remember that most good breeders use outside studs. So they might only have control over the testing of their breedings. They should be using studs with testing, but it's possible some dogs back in the pedigree weren't fully tested OR the results weren't registered with OFA. Hopefully now that there's an easily accessible OFA registry, more breeders will register all results with the OFA.

Anyway, in my experience, there's always some gaps in OFA behind the pedigrees. In a perfect world every pup produced would be tested for every possible health issue. But that's unlikely to happen. My understanding is at the minimum you want health testing on the breeding pair and their parents. So if you don't see them listed on OFA, ask the breeder for proof. :)
 

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I do know a standard with bilateral luxating patellas but we think that she was the result of a byb gone bad and they may have crossed with minis cause she is pretty small but who knows?
 

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I do know a standard with bilateral luxating patellas but we think that she was the result of a byb gone bad and they may have crossed with minis cause she is pretty small but who knows?
Hmm, interesting! I had never heard of patella issues with Standards. But of course, there could be a problem if they were interbreeding sizes...
 

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Hips Standards and increasingly Minis
Elbow I don't know anyone doing this test
Patella Minis and Toys
Sebaceous Adenitis Standards every two years when breeding
DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY Standards.... test new in 09
NEONATAL ENCEPHALOPATHY Standards
Cardiac Standards
Cerf Standards, Minis and Toys every breeding year
Thyroid Standards every breeding year
Von Willibrands Standards
Optigen Minis and Toys
Legg-Calve Perthes Minis and Toys


Not all breeders list all tests but it is pretty much the gold standard to list at least hips and eyes. Example... my bitch Sabrina:

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1131054#animal

She also has testing for thyroid (every year she was bred), VWB (vetgen) and NE that are not listed. A breeder should always be ready to provide hard copies of all tests that are not listed on OFA. Really, as buyers get more savy, breeders are really going to need to get in the habit of listing all of their testing or buyers are going to write them off.

I would be very careful about taking only a vet's "exam" as proof of testing. One of the scams these days seems to be sending xrays to certain vets around the country who are guaranteed to pass your dog's hips. Also, if you have ever seen the eye exam forms, you would agree that a lay person would have trouble interpreting it. An official CERF certificate means that the dog has passing eyes.
 

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so i know the parents have to be tested but do you have to get the puppies tested? Hip dyspalsia, at two years i know about but what about every thing else? and if so which tests and how often?
 

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You don't test non breeding dogs unless you suspect there is a problem or unless you are trying to track a problem in a line.
 

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JRD test?

I have been hearing about standards, silver in particular now having momre instances with JRD. (Juvenal renal disease) It's terrible as most dogs affected will die by 3 years of age.
I know there is a test now, but it's not totally reliable. Any thoughts?
 

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Cbrand said it all :)

I would just like to add that one of the ways to increase chances of getting a healthy puppy is to buy puppy from a breeding between stud and a bitch that are at least 2 years old - preferably older !!! Most diseases clearly appear by age 3 and if both parents are healthy at that age - than it is very little chance that they carried something on the next generation.

Some breeders like to skip Seb. Adenitis since punching a skin is painful for a dog and it is rare that whole body is affected. So, if the vet. tech. punches the skin on the healthy part - he might get negative result even though dog actually has pathological changes on another part of a body. BUT, I still like to see it done, anyway. Some breeders like to skip testing on some disorders caused by recessive genes by arguing that if one parent is free of the genes, than pups could only be a carrier and not have a disease - I do not like that reasoning :arrogant (2):- why than produce puppies ??? Even if they become Ch they will most likely NOT been used in breeding program for the next generation (HOPEFULLY !!!!!) - so what was than a reason to breed that litter at all but purely for "sale" :rolffleyes: as pets.

All in all - do not buy pups with parents who have only preliminary results and try to find litter where bitch and stud are 3-5 years old and tested !If breeder do not have results of a stud - too bad - what kind of a breeder is he/she ? No reputable breeder will breed a bitch without obtaining test records of a stud !

Best of luck :)
 

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I have been hearing about standards, silver in particular now having momre instances with JRD. (Juvenal renal disease) It's terrible as most dogs affected will die by 3 years of age.
I know there is a test now, but it's not totally reliable. Any thoughts?
JRD is clearly genetic because you can see it run in lines. However, we don't know how it is passed down. I was unaware that JRD is more prevalent in Silver lines. The local line that I know produced it was black/cream.

There is a test for JRD but it is not accurate and I don't believe OFA will list its results. When the test first came out, we all ran out and got our Poodles tested. However, something like 95% of the dogs came back as being affected or carrier which did not match the pattern of the disorder.

I had my own Sabrina tested when she was 5-6 yrs old. She came back as being "affected". Now JRD affected poodles usually die by the time they are 2 yrs old. If they aren't dead they are very, very ill. Sabrina has never shown any signs of renal disease. She has 26 full siblings on the ground and none of them ever had JRD. She has 12 puppies on the ground who are all over the age of 2 and non of them has any renal issues.

At this point, I don't think anyone is having their Poodles tested anymore and we have gone back to studying pedigrees to see if we can figure out who produces it.
 

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That is very interesting Cbrand ! Thanks very much for educating us all about JRD :) !!!

One would assume that JRD expresses itself in very young dogs - hence the name "Juvenile" . It looks like that disorder needs something more than just one gene to develop in the actual disease. Sometimes particular genes start expression by enhancement from other set of genes and we should not forget environmental factors too. Hmmm... Yes, I agree that in this instance pedigree
evaluation would be of greater importance than just plain testing.

This again proves my theory that potential buyer should seek for a litter that comes from mature parents (3-5 years old).
 

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Florence Graham wrote a article on it. I know both parents have to be carriers, so finding out who is a carrier would be key, with the test being unreliable, even waiting to breed a bit later, you can still have two healthy carriers who would produce some affected puppies.
Yes I have been told it runs in some lines more than others.
I knew someone who had a dog with this and it was so very hard to watch, knowing she was going to die and there was nothing you could do for her.
 

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Hi Poodles4me !

Do you maybe have a pointer to that article ? I would really like to read it. That is very interesting :rolffleyes:. If 95 % are carriers and have it as a recessive gene than it would mean that some puppies in every litter would definitely develop JRD !!!! But than only 5 % of all poodles would be eligible for breeding program :rolffleyes: !?! Something does not add up :eek:hwell:..

Thanks : )
 

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This is where I get confused. I thought a carrier, bred to a carrier would produce affected pups. (this is why I am not a breeder!)

I am not quoting Florence Grahams article. I have had a lot of information on the subject thrown at me and I am still not totally clear on it.
I dont know where I saw the article and will try and locate it.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Okay, so if they aren't listed on the OFA site, I should ask about them, including Degenerative Myelopathy and Neonatal Encephalopathy? A handler that I talked told me her first Standard puppy had Addison's, is there a test for that?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Also, I've heard that some things don't need to be tested for, if the dog's parent were cleared. I think I heard this about VWB.
 

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Okay, so if they aren't listed on the OFA site, I should ask about them, including Degenerative Myelopathy and Neonatal Encephalopathy? A handler that I talked told me her first Standard puppy had Addison's, is there a test for that?
No gentic marker for Addisons yet. If a dog is affected you can test positive for this disease is what I have been told. Thanks god I have never seen it.
As far as testing. There are breeders that say they have testing and what they have are opinions and uncertified tests. It is not that expensive to send an eye cerf in . They should be doing this once a year. Especially on breeding dogs. Hips should be evaluated by someone that is either OFA certified or by the PennHip method NOTHING ELSE, expense is onec for heavens sake. IMO if a breeder is not willing to do what it takes then they are BYB and nothiong else , should be charging for the pups in that manner..Either pay a lower price and run the risk or pay the higher price for a gentically tested dog..
Even if all the ancestors are tested I do think that certain tests should be run on the breeding pups. And if you plan to use a baby to breed with (Under two) Then all gentic testing that can be done should be done. full blood panel vW Eyes NE and a prelim of good or better. I think is a disaster for a young female but accidents do happen.. :)
 

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A couple of these issues I've never even heard of before, which is a bit scary. So off to do some research - yay a project :)

I do have one question though, what exactly are you testing for when testing thyroids? Is it just the basic thyroid test that your vet can do or is it something else? I've sent client dogs for thyroid testiing in agression cases b/c it can sometimes be linked the behavior. Anyway just curious if it's the same thing or something diffeent.
 

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No gentic marker for Addisons yet. If a dog is affected you can test positive for this disease is what I have been told. Thanks god I have never seen it.
We have Addisons in PWDs as well. Like bigred said, there's no genetic test (yet) so your best bet is a breeder who is knowledgeable about the different lines of poodles and where Addisons has occurred. I know my mom stays away from certain PWD lines bc of this, so I'm sure the same goes for poodles. The Poodle Health Registry would also be valuable for looking back and seeing if any Addisons has occurred in the pedigree. :)
 
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