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Discussion Starter #1
I'm thinking about getting a puppy from a breeder that is recommended and reputable and does health testing, but has a full blood sister from a previous litter that tested Affected for SA on OFA. Does anyone know the odds of other pups getting SA? Neither of the parents show signs of it but have not been tested but I will ask the breeder. My understanding is there is no definitive genetic test for SA
 

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I would definitely look for another breeder if it were me. These kinds of things...auto immune problems are genetic in some manner...maybe polygenetic. Or some things don't show up clinically in some dogs but they may be affected by it. (ie: VonWillebrands sometimes) Maybe someone more versed in genetics can offer better advice. But my instinct tells me to skip ahead to another breeder that doesn't have this problem in his/her dogs' lines. Since it's not something that can be tested, it is possible it could pop up anywhere in anybody's dogs, no doubt. But I'd stack the deck more in your favor by not going to a breeder who definitely has it in her lines. And watch the pedigrees...kind of hard with a small gene pool, but anyhow...keep an eye out when you do your research.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you for your thoughts. I am wondering though if anything is ever perfect

Update, the parents were tested recently and they are older and were clear.
Since there is no known gene for SA I am wondering if this matters.


She sent me the tests. Also a bunch of relatives are listed on OFA and no one else is affected. I also do not think the dog was symptomatic because they were planning to breed her
 

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What is SA and OFA ?? thanks
SA=Sebaceous Adenitis is a hereditary skin disease in which the sebaceous glands become inflamed, often leading to progressive loss of hair

OFA=Orthopedic Foundation for Animals ~The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is a not-for-profit organization based in Columbia, Missouri that aims to research and prevent orthopedic and hereditary diseases in companion animals.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Can you please link a website to the breeder. Impossible to tell anything from this info.
I would really prefer not to list the breeder publicly.

The question is not relevant to the particular breeder

At age 2 a full sibling from a prior litter who the new owners wanted to breed who was not obviously symptomatic was found to be "affected" by SA on the standard biopsy. Those results are listed publicly on OFA. Obviously at that point the dog could no longer be bred. The new owner notified the breeder who then had the parents tested for SA. Those results were clean, I have seen the tests. Whoever did the test told her that since the parents were clean she could breed them again. The parents were 4 and 5 years old at the time. I am interested in an 8 week old puppy from those parents. How likely is it that this puppy will also develop SA? How accurate is the test because I have read online that the results can change over the life of the dog. I am looking purely as a pet but I would like a healthy pet. Thank you for any insights
 

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Bottom line:

1) It IS hereditary.

2) Just because a dog is asystematic or shows no clinical signs, if relatives are affected...have this autoimmune disorder in their blood lines, it can be more likely to show up in decedents of those dogs than dogs that do not have this inheritable disease in their blood lines. They can wind up having the clinical signs at some point. Or they may not. It's a crap shoot. I personally would not support a breeder who is breeding dogs that have been shown to be descendants of dogs that had SA.

I don't know what you mean by "clear." Clear meaning the absence of a clinical problem at this time? Or clear...does not have the gene. Since you mentioned there is no identifiable gene, I presume you mean the dog is affected, is a carrier but isn't showing a problem now. (?)

To me, it's a no brainer. If a breeder is continuing to breed dogs that have or have had SA or any other avoidable malady in their lines, that to me is irresponsible and I would not support such a breeder. There are other, lots of other great breeders that do not have this miserable disease in their breeding lines...have never had an incident in their dogs or their off spring. Sure, it can show up here and there but this is definitely in her lines apparently. I would not risk it.

It sounds like you are zeroing in on this breeder and thinking of taking the risk. You want to know the odds. I don't think any such study is available. And I wouldn't even go there in my mind. I just know the odds of this showing up are higher than they are in dogs that have not had SA in their ancestors. It sounds like you're dead set on going to this breeder and risking it. Would you fly in a plane that had one engine out or one that was running on all engines? I just wanted to lay it out on the table what I'm seeing...that is, if I'm understanding it right. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. I would move on and find another breeder. It's a very sad disease and anyone knowingly breeding dogs that come from lines that have been affected with it, even if so and so dog isn't showing signs is not being responsible. I would not consider for one second a puppy whose sibling has SA or whose parents or grandparents were affected. But good luck in whatever you decide.
 

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I admit I'm not familiar with SA, but just based on what I know of genetics if the parents are clear and a pup from their specific breeding ended up with the disease, I'd assume that one or both of the parents are carriers. Even if they never developed it in their entire lives, they could still pass it on to offspring, and it seems as though they have done so at least once.

I agree with poodlebeguiled that if the breeder is breeding this pair knowing they can't guarantee that their dogs aren't carriers and knowing that they've previously produced a puppy with the disease, that's irresponsible and probably shouldn't be supported.

Again, I'm not familiar with this specific disease, just going off of what I do know about breeding and genetics. Personally, I'd look for a different breeder.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Bottom line:

Clear
Meaning they did a biopsy and found no clinical disease. That is the only way to determine if a dog has it. Also they can test negative and later test positive since it is looking for evidence of the condition rather than a genetic test and it is known to occur in standard poodles. There is no known genetic marker although based on my research they believe it is recessive so this puppy could very well have it, about a 25% chance. That is too high for me so I am out. Yes everyone's words did make an impression and I am very grateful to a friend on this board who pointed out the sibling with SA when I first asked her opinion. Thank you everyone. As for the breeder I think she is older and does not really research and probably relied on whatever she was told when she took the parents in to be tested, she seems ethical but maybe I am naive, either way does not matter since I am not getting this puppy
 

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You may be right as far as the breeder making a mistake. Some of these things are recessive or polygenetic...and it can and does crop up from time to time anyhow. I was just thinking this was more of a risk. I'm glad you will keep looking. You can get lots of help, depending on where you live from some members here. A lot of people know a lot of good breeders. Hang in there. I'm sure you're an eager beaver. Kudos for doing your research. Best wishes.
 
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I think I would walk away from this breeding. The breeder has been open and let you know about the SA. I commend them on the. However since the afflicted dog came from the same parents and it is hereditary there would be no guarantee that you pup won't develop this condition t some point. It may be a recessive gene that just popped out of no where but who knows? She bloodline would make me walk. Thats just my personal opinion. I have no facts but if I want a healthy pup I want the best odds and I do not see it with this reeding.
 

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I won't restate what others have said in other posts because, collectively, all the information relayed has been correct and thorough. I think you are making the right choice in deciding to look elsewhere. I personally have seen SA dogs in various levels of manifestations of the disease, one from a VERY well known kennel that was severely affected and it was heartbreaking - despite diligent care he looked like a Mexican Hairless with some wisps of hair here and there and cracked and dry skin. And the smell... While an affected dog can be managed in many cases, it is often a huge amount of work with special baths, constant attention to the skin, etc. And even in the best case scenario, most will never have the look or coat of the poodle we love. It's one thing to have it crop up in a dog you have already had and adore, but if you already know it's in the lines, I would move on. I must say I highly commend whoever the breeder was for being up front and above board about this issue, even if it will cost her loss of a sale. Many breeders would not be so forthcoming which is why we have hidden issues in lines in the first place.
 

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Have they been vgl tested. To my knowledge that can tell you if they have certain ‘added defensive’ genes to prevent autoimmune issues (I don’t know how exactly it works, it’s just what I have heard). If they show that they have added defended that might help.
Just realized that both of the affected dogs parents are the same as for the puppy so clearly
They don’t probably have the added defences.
Sa is not a fun think to deal with and it’s terribly ugly. I would not want to have a dog with it.
 

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I would keep on looking. Ditto what everyone else has said. I had a dog years ago who was a big chunk of my heart. I looked for a lot of years before I got him. He had skin issues as a result of an immune system problems. Different from SA but A-W-F-U-L. I spent so much time on his health care I would think I heard him & come bolt upright out of bed, rushing to get him outside or get his meds even a year after his death. It was so bad that I heard a dog cough on television in my sleep & provided a whole slapschtick comedy routine for my family which they would have found hilarious if they didn't know why it happened. His vet record weighed over 50 pounds upon his death & I had spent thousands just in trying to keep him comfortable. The money didn't matter, if he could have stayed with me longer. But I wouldn't knowingly take a pup that had a maybe larger than normal chance of having something like that. I know all too well just how heartbreaking it can be. When looking for my SPOO I found a breeder I really liked, even liked how she views her program & what she's trying to accomplish. I respect her because she was honest & upfront. After what I went through with my boy years ago, I just couldn't risk it.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The breeder was not open about it but did not hide it either (there is no way to hide is since it is on OFA), someone who is advising me who I know through poodle forum caught it by clicking through on the Dad's OFA and came upon the sibling. I am very grateful to her!
 

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Saphire, in that case... just no. I admire & respect breeders who tell you the good, the bad, the ugly right up front. You shouldn't have to research & find it. Of course I was the scary lady back in the day when I sold horses that told everyone all the bad stuff first then I'd tell the good stuff.
 

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The breeder was not open about it but did not hide it either (there is no way to hide is since it is on OFA), someone who is advising me who I know through poodle forum caught it by clicking through on the Dad's OFA and came upon the sibling. I am very grateful to her!
Thanks, Saphire, and I wouldn't have minded if you named me.

Since we're not naming the breeder, I'll add that I'm not confident she'd have ever revealed that a pup from her previous litter developed SA for two reasons:

1) She had whited out the OFA numbers on the papers she sent you, probably thinking the average puppy buyer wouldn't know how to search the dog by name, and it was the buyer of that pup who put the SA results on the site. This pup was automatically linked to the breeder's sire and dam, and

2) The breeder had good test results for all the testable DNA genetic diseases - but omitted one: PRA-prcd, which is the genetic eye disorder that causes blindness in affected dogs, meaning dogs with the gene from both parents.


For potential puppy buyers:

When buying a puppy from a purportedly good breeder, it's important to know how to search the OFA site. You can learn how to understand it by reading my tutorial with photos, Genetic Conditions - OFA Blue Book: What to Know In Choosing A Puppy or Breeding, at that link. On the dog's info is also info on the sire, dam, their parents and offspring if those owners submitted this.

Not all breeders use OFA; the trend is to have testing results posted on the laboratory site that did the testing. This can manipulated too if the dog owner doesn't want to published or wants to remove it.

Last year when I was thinking about getting a second poodle, I was mesmerized by one breeder in the north that has a few gorgeous poodles and wins a lot of shows. So I checked a DNA lab site where her female had recently been tested and it was a carrier of PRA-prcd. I looked it up again a month later and the results for the eye test had been removed, probably so her competition wouldn't find out her winning female is a carrier.

In another situation, I was interested in a breeder in the southwest. We must have have had a half dozen conversations in a four month period. She too has beautiful champion poodles. Two things bothered me, however. One is she was bloody far away like the other one, and two is that she said she couldn't find copies of test results for the sire taken years earlier. I know for a fact thru researching the pedigree at poodledata.org that the grandfather of the sire, who was a Grand Champion, was listed as being a carrier of PRA-prcd. Now her male and the father of the pups could have been clear for this, but it also could have been passed down.

NOTE: Carriers of the PRA-prcd eye disease do not manifest the disease so a pup like this would be fine - as long as the dam isn't also a carrier. Those pups should have the DNA test, since statistically some will be okay, half will be be carriers, while others will be affected and go blind.


(This does not apply for SA. I have no idea what the inheritance pattern is there.)

Well anyway didn't have a testing for this either and said she knew her dogs' eyes were fine and didn't want to pay for a re-test. Well my dad was from Missouri, the Show-Me state. I wouldn't take the risk. One other red flag was this: while chatting in general, the subject of microchipping came up. She said she doesn't microchip any of her poodles. So say a breeder has several poodles on one color. Heck, she can submit DNA saliva swabs with just the name of the dog, and how is anyone to ever know she's not testing the same dog that's clear of genetic problems under different names?

Then there was a third well known and impressive breeder in a central northwest state. She too is a top show breeder. On her site, the testing results for her dogs were there for the majority, but for some, these were missing. I imagine this one would be forthcoming about why and what problems existed. We never got that far in a conversation b/c I didn't like her extensive contract and thought her poodles were overpriced. I also felt insulted when she asked me to send her a picture of myself. I mean seriously, what next, my tax returns? Some breeders go a little too far in in their demands but then can't cough up the darn test results.

Like any business, full time breeders usually hope break even and earning a little on the side is icing on the cake. They get disappointed when one of their poodles pop up with a genetic problem, or worse, several of them do. I read an interview of a breeder who started out 20+ years ago and I was so impressed she said after several years of breeding, she discovered serious problems in her line with face or body conformation issues in the 2nd and 3rd generation. She was able to pinpoint which poodles had been the source of pups not meeting the standards of the breed. She neutered/spayed, and re-homed them as pets - and started all over again! Now that's what I call a great breeder.

So caveat emptor - let the buyer beware.

Btw, good luck Saphire in finding a new puppy!
 

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Yes, Kontiki, but it was done in such a way that a potential buyer unfamiliar with OFA would have never noticed it.

Something like this can bring a crisis in trust.

For example, one looking for a puppy talks to a breeder multiple times and feels reassured, or the reverse: a breeder talks to a potential buyer multiple times and think they're going to give the puppy a good home, only find out later they had serious issues making this impossible.

It really cuts both ways. I think a lot of people, buyers and sellers, live off the hope that things will work out, so they hide problems not necessarily out of greed or malice. This is why I'm glad PF offers the education from our many members to help others.
 
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