Poodle Forum banner

41 - 60 of 92 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
22,404 Posts
C sharp, thanks so much. Lily is an amazing girl and I am sure that you will make for Dillon a wonderful life no matter what. He is a nice looking boy, very happy. Poodles are the best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
151 Posts
Bravo, fjm!! I think this thread should be made a "sticky," or assigned reading. Thanks for doing such a wonderful "public service" for man, woman and poodles alike! Since "you can't unknow what you know," everyone can now go forward with their eyes wide open.:)
Great stuff, I was fortunate that I found the right breeder that had my pups best interest in mind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
This is always the place where I get discouraged-puppy buying. It takes so much research these days! I have been so very fortunate when it comes to my poodles-I found wonderful people with the dogs best interests at the forefront. I don't breed dogs. I do know a little something about genetics-and I look at the husbandry closely. Always such a risk when you are making such an investment-you want the healthiest dog you can get. Who wants to have to take their best friend to the dr once a month?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
115 Posts
SUCH a great thread! I read the whole thing. As someone in the process of looking for a puppy / a good breeder, I still have a few questions that I am wondering if others can answer.

Also I think it's good to point out to people that breeders shouldn't have 'excuses.' I've emailed at least ten breeders over the past few months and you would be amazed how many say they do ALL genetic testing on their website and then it just happens the father of their current litter...his genetic testing link is broken. Or missing. Or they post all good genetic results on their website but if you click through to the OFA website, only a few results show and most are hidden. I CANNOT BELIEVE how often breeders do this! I am so heartbroken for the puppies! One recently told me "oh I trusted my friend so I went ahead and did the breeding. I should have known I will never see those papers now."

(You should be able to look up both parents by CHIC# or registered name here: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals)

Now, for my questions; could anyone post a photo (with names blacked out as necessary) of genetic testing so people know what to look for in the results? Sometimes I see 'good', sometimes I see 'normal'. Are both ok? Sometimes I see 12, 13, or 14 as a result in one of the tests. I have no idea which range of numbers indicates good things. What does a hip result of 'fair' mean? Should the dog not be bred if hips are only fair?

I am also wondering what acceptable ages are for Poodles to be bred? When I hear the dam is 2 and a half and the sire is 2, should I be worried? How old is too old?

I've heard of the Poodle Health Registry (Poodle Health Registry) How often do breeders actually use this?

How long should puppies stay with their mom? Is 8 weeks enough? I am guessing 9 is preferable.

I know there is so much that is up to each individual to determine for themselves, like size, which variety of Poodle to get, color, gender, temperament etc. But I am also guessing there are some basic practices around breeding that still haven't been discussed here. I would love to hear more about them, as I think it's very good information for any prospective puppy buyers to have.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
22,404 Posts
I can't speak to the numbers for the tests, but I would say fair probably isn't good enough to me. Normal would be acceptable for hips but good or excellent would be what I would distinctly look for since any pup I get will be a performance dog.

Ian Dunbar actually advocates for mating males when they are much older (at least 5 years) and without AI. He thinks that waiting will allow potential temperament issues as well as hidden genetic issues to present themselves.

To a great extent I think the age at which the puppy separates from the litter is somewhat variety related. I know many tpoo breeders hold their puppies longer than spoo breeders. Lily came to us when she was 7 weeks old. Her litter was large so she had had lots of pup to pup socialization by that age and also had seen a lot of people as her breeder's family included young children (friends visiting) and also there had been many visitors to see the puppies from about when they were five weeks old. Again, Ian Dunbar advocates for puppies to go to their forever homes at 7 weeks, unless the breeders are doing wildly good socialization to many kinds of people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,282 Posts
SUCH a great thread!
...
(You should be able to look up both parents by CHIC# or registered name here: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals)

Now, for my questions; could anyone post a photo (with names blacked out as necessary) of genetic testing so people know what to look for in the results? Sometimes I see 'good', sometimes I see 'normal'. Are both ok? Sometimes I see 12, 13, or 14 as a result in one of the tests. I have no idea which range of numbers indicates good things. What does a hip result of 'fair' mean? Should the dog not be bred if hips are only fair?
...

I've heard of the Poodle Health Registry (Poodle Health Registry) How often do breeders actually use this?

How long should puppies stay with their mom? Is 8 weeks enough? I am guessing 9 is preferable.

I know there is so much that is up to each individual to determine for themselves, like size, which variety of Poodle to get, color, gender, temperament etc. But I am also guessing there are some basic practices around breeding that still haven't been discussed here. I would love to hear more about them, as I think it's very good information for any prospective puppy buyers to have.
Hi Pella -- In answer to the above questions ...

'Good' and 'normal' are both ok. For the eye exam 12, 13, or 14 indicates the year that the test was done (annual eye tests are recommended for breeding poodles). A hip result of 'fair' is the lowest passing grade, but it is passing. In choosing whether or not to breed a dog, a breeder takes a lot of things into account. Of course anyone would prefer to have good or excellent hips, but you need to balance the fair hips against all of the other characteristics of the dog. Also, the inheritance of hip dysplasia is polygenic, meaning that more than one gene is involved. In managing a polygenic condition, it is important to look at the hips of other close relatives. So a dog with fair hips who has close relatives with good or excellent hips is a better bet than a dog with fair hips with close relatives that are dysplastic. Also, you should look at the proposed mate of a dog with fair hips. Many breeders will breed fair to good or excellent, but not fair to fair.

If test results are listed on OFA, you really don't need to look at the original certificates. OFA does that for you. Here is an example of testing as reported on the OFA site (it is my spoo, Cammie): Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Breeders definitely use PHRdatabase. But it is well known that diseases are under-reported, so you have to take that into account. The better breeders have a lot of personal knowledge of the dogs that they are breeding that may not be on any public web site.

Cammie had a litter of standard poodles about 6 months ago. On the advice of my mentor, we kept the puppies for 9 weeks. Many breeders let them go at 8 weeks. It was interesting to see that in the final week with us, the puppies seemed to begin to separate a little more. For example, I would often see a puppy or two sleeping by themselves rather than on top of each other. I think keeping them an extra week is a good idea, especially for puppies that are going to single-dog families.

Another thing that I think is very important is the way the momma dog is cared for. Cammie had the luxury of raising her pups in her own home, a place where she felt loved and secure. It was amazing to see how she instinctively knew how to take care of her babies. She got plenty of support, including emotional support, the freedom to rest away from the pups when she wanted to, and plenty of fabulous nutrition (at the height of her nursing, she was eating 3 pound of meat a day). Breeders who are making puppies for a living cannot possibly give this level of support, and momma dogs are often kept in kennels and fed cheap kibble. I recently heard of one breeder who keeps the momma dog in such a small enclosure with her pups that she has no opportunity to get away from them for a rest. That's sad for the momma and a sad momma can't be good for the puppies. So I strongly recommend that any puppy buyer visit the breeder BEFORE making a decision. Meet the momma dog. Does she look happy? (The two saddest poodles that I ever saw in my life were breeder's dogs.) Is her temperament and looks what you would want for your dog? Where does she live? Kennel or comfortable home? Where will she have her puppies? A happy and secure momma dog who has lots of support from the breeder will raise a better puppy than a stressed, confined kennel momma. My opinion for what it is worth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
115 Posts
Thanks peppersb for that helpful information. :) Breeding fair hips to excellent or good hips...I can see where that makes some sense, and where the dog's closest relatives and how well their hips are doing would also play a role. I didn't know hip dysplasia was polygenic.

What I meant about genetic testing results is that on many breeder's own websites they will show a picture of the mother, with a link to her pedigree, and then list all the test results right below that, and then have a link to the OFA page. And on the breeder's website, all the test results are listed as good and normal etc...but when you actually click on that OFA link not all the results are displayed. You see 2 or 3 or 4. And then when you ask the breeder they say something like "oh I never got around to it" or "Oh those aren't the important tests, all you really need is hips" and things like that. Once I see results displayed on the OFA page, I am happy.

It breaks my heart to think about Poodle mamas on crappy dry kibble. :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
i just wish it was easier to find these quality breeders. I have contacted our NC poodle club and gotten their list, short, of breeders in NC and SC. I am looking for a miniature and finding it much more difficult than finding Standard breeders whose dogs I loved, did all the pertinent health requirements, raised them in home and we have our 6 th Standard. I would like to find a wonderful Mini companion pup in the next year, hopefully sooner, but not having good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,395 Posts
Picnic, maybe you need to expand your search outside of the NC/SC area. There are quality breeders but perhaps you might be willing to fly out to pick up the puppy. Just a suggestion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
i find it difficult to buy a dog from a breeder I have never met based on photos, other info, even recommendations. I have always visited a breeder, gotten a feel for their breeding philosophy and general feeling about the dogs. So, even though this will be only a family pet, I still feel this is important. I may expand to VA, GA and TN. Amazes me that I could always find quality Standard breeders within the 2 states and I thought Minis would be easier to find. Best to get over narrowing my quest for a black girl LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
i find it difficult to buy a dog from a breeder I have never met based on photos, other info, even recommendations. I have always visited a breeder, gotten a feel for their breeding philosophy and general feeling about the dogs. So, even though this will be only a family pet, I still feel this is important. I may expand to VA, GA and TN. Amazes me that I could always find quality Standard breeders within the 2 states and I thought Minis would be easier to find. Best to get over narrowing my quest for a black girl LOL.
Check out eClassic/Eaglehill-South Poodles, in SC (Website). I've talked with Debbie and like her and her dogs a lot; we're actually facebook friends. She breeds primarily blacks but is not expecting any litters in the immediate future. At the least, Debbie will know other breeders in the region with upcoming litters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
I decided against a Mini, have had one before, have my 6th Standard now. I went back to a breed I have loved for awhile, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, with help found one several states away that met my health requirements and more. She is now a year old, beautiful little tri color that is best buddies with my very active almost 9 YO Standard. I have had Standards (and a Mini and some other breeds) for over 45 years and will miss them when I lose Molly, hopefully not soon, but wanted a small dog with low maintenance (I have always done my own grooming), a personality more like my Standards--want and need human interaction and always with me LOL. Good luck to everyone here with their Poodles, I have loved all of mine.

Diane
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
I decided against a Mini, have had one before, have my 6th Standard now. I went back to a breed I have loved for awhile, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, with help found one several states away that met my health requirements and more. She is now a year old, beautiful little tri color that is best buddies with my very active almost 9 YO Standard. I have had Standards (and a Mini and some other breeds) for over 45 years and will miss them when I lose Molly, hopefully not soon, but wanted a small dog with low maintenance (I have always done my own grooming), a personality more like my Standards--want and need human interaction and always with me LOL. Good luck to everyone here with their Poodles, I have loved all of mine.

Diane
Didn't check date of post. D'oh! :doh:
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
3,110 Posts
Didn't check date of post. D'oh! :doh:

LOL, you're not alone! I still find myself responding to posts, only to later find out that it's many months old! I tend to not look at the date beforehand. I mostly go by what threads/posts might would interest me. In fact, when I first got here, I went right to a thread that was the most interesting for me at the time, only to find out later that the last post was several months old. It was a controversial thread, and I was accused of starting the controversy up again. Yikes! Not a good way to start off, but I had no idea. In fact, duh me had to even ask where I should look for the dates! Right in front of my face, but I couldn't see it until someone pointed it out. That happens a lot to me, in other aspects as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
I'm horribly ashamed and embarrassed to admit this, but when I was a college student trying to make ends meet I worked a minimum-wage position at a pet store that sold puppies. The source of these dogs was kept secret even from employees, but it was only a small handful of names on the papers for dozens of breeds. The conditions under which these dogs were shipped were terrible, and at one point a puppy had been so injured on the truck that she had to be euthanized. I quit shortly after.

We were told that the puppies didn't come from puppy mills and we were expected to pass this lie on to the customers. Nearly all the puppies were registered with America's Pet Registry, which is absolutely worthless.

At the time, I didn't realize that these dogs came to us half-ruined by the breeders and were only made worse in the store, without adequate exercise or attention. I can only imagine what a nightmare it was to housebreak these puppies who had never been outdoors in their lives. God only knows what kind of mental disorders those poor dogs developed before they went home. Watching a border collie puppy absolutely wilt in his little 2'x5' cage broke my heart. I only lasted at that job for about 6 weeks. I was happy when people protested outside the front doors, and even happier when I found out a few years later that the store had closed.

Never, ever buy a puppy from a pet shop. For that matter, don't buy ANYTHING from a pet shop that sells puppies! The whole process should be illegal.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
22,404 Posts
Mason there is no shame in needing to earn a living. The real message that comes through is that you are a highly ethical and principled person to have quit a job at a time that you needed to make money rather than looking the other way.
 
41 - 60 of 92 Posts
Top