I, personally, would not want to breed my poodles for sooo many reasons. Too much on my plate as it is. Don't want to deal with vetting the potential puppy owners. Don't trust people in general to be responsible owners and I'm not willing to give/sell my puppies to anyone less than perfect. Don't want to risk my poodle's health and or life in case something goes wrong with the pregnancy. Don't have the room for extra dogs if the puppies either don't all find homes or need to be returned to me. It's not likely to be just one puppy, after all. And I have both male and female poodle puppies, intact, right now that I could breed later on, but won't.

I could continue...

 

My perception is that people are pretty much fine with thoughtful breeding. Curlfloofan is an example of a pet owner who is correctly exploring a transition into becoming a breeder. She has started out with a well bred dog. She is working closely with a mentor. She has a good relationship with her pets' veterinarians. She is evaluating whether she wants to continue with this particular dog due to some concerns. If and when she finally does decide to become a breeder, I'm sure her puppies will receive the best possible care and socialization before moving to their forever homes.

Where you see a lot of pushback is when people don't approach breeding with that level of consideration. A lot of the people who say they want to breed their dogs don't really seem to be thinking things through. The thread ThePoodlesMoody posted about Papaya has already showed us some of the ways a breeding can go wrong. If that dam had been with the original owner or with a complete amateur she probably would have died. The puppy who needed surgery probably would have died as well. The entire litter might have died if the family hadn't stepped up to bottle feed the puppies after Papaya went in for surgery. On top of the unexpected medical issues, ThePoodlesMoody has been following a socialization protocol ranging from handling their feet even before their eyes opened to inviting a wide variety of people to meet the puppies.

 

My view is that there should be much, much more to it than just “do I have permission, is my dog healthy, and do I think they have a good temperament?”, which is what seems to be in a lot of facebook, etc. posts asking about breeding. Each dog that is bred should bring something amazing to the breed and it should be in pursuit of a specific goal besides wanting to provide pets to friends and family. There are plenty of people who breed poodles (and other breeds), but what we need is more amazing, ethical breeders who care about the future of the breed.

 

It wasn’t really bait; you were asked a legitimate question. The people here are exceedingly mild.

I would never breed my dogs because:
1. I have girls, and I love them too much to risk their lives for my own selfish gains.
1b. I wouldn’t want to have an unneutered male, and there isn’t the benefit of knowing the puppy from birth if your dog is the father.
2. The vast majority of breeders who think they’re doing it right, who think they’re “#ethicalbreeders” are byb. Sometimes fancy BYB, but BYB nonetheless.
3. I love my dogs, but they’re not special. And if they were “worth” breeding, their prestigious breeders would have kept them.
4. There is the perfect dog out there - so many dogs, both from real, ethical breeder and in shelter, and on the flip side of that same coin you’re never, ever going to get the same dog again.
5. I fully intend to have a dog I raise from birth one day. And to do that by helping a pregnant stray or rescue.
6. Like most hobbies, dog breeding is a money pit if you’re doing it right. I’d rather spend my money on different types of dog sport/training that are less expensive.
7. Over the years, there have been many horror stories. People who come for advice when all is going wrong after breeding their beloved pet and then ghost. Papaya is just the most recent example of a horror story, and if she hadn’t been rescued, no one would have ever even known it. That is the reality of good-enough breeders.

 

Adding this, the first post when I went over to Instagram just now. This is CONSTANT. Nobody needs to be adding to it.

 

Just my opinion as someone who has bred my dogs (another breed) and had a registered kennel, the work that goes into having a litter is so much more than just having two nice dogs. All puppies are cute, that's a given, but they are a lifetime commitment. Anytime I thought about having a litter I made myself go to the dog pound and really look into those desperate eyes. I've docked my own puppies tails, removed dew claws, and assisted in my own dogs emergency C-section. Just "because I want to" is not an acceptable reason to bring another litter in the world. I applaud the Poodle breeders that hold their standards for breeding high. A lot of work, planning, and heartbreak can go into breeding, not to mention the vetting of people that want your puppies. It's not just pretty fluffy puppies.

 

It's not that your desire to breed Eddie to have a continuation of him isn't understood, it's that there's so much more to consider when breeding, if you care about the future of the breed as well.

--

What I don't know is if you've considered what could happen to the rest of Eddie's offspring, if there are more puppies in that litter, and on down the rest of his line.

I'd assume that the breeder would keep the rest (if any) to sell. For standard poodles that's usually around 7 or more pups. This is the part where I worry for those pups.

If the breeder is one that sells with full registration just for the price of admission, and does not contractually, legally, remain as a co-owner, then anyone who buys those pups can do anything they want with them.

Eddie's other babies might end up in a loving home, but if they are not required by a contract to spay or neuter, what happens to Eddie's grandbabies? If those 6 pups each had 6 pups, that's 36 in two generations. It doesn't take long with dogs to create some very large family trees.

The numbers alone aren't the story, it's how healthy will the descendants remain, how much of the correct poodle structure and temperament will remain, and in what circumstances will they live their lives?

Eddie's babies might just as easily end up as breeders in a commercial/volume situation, which is no life for any dog. This is how those places get and can advertise their dogs for sale as registered.

--

Modern purebred dogs are almost entirely human created. There is a "blueprint", the breed standard, that conscientious breeders strive for. The breed standard addresses conformation - how the dog is "put together", it's structure which also governs how the dog moves and it addresses temperament.

It takes dedication from conscientious breeders to make sure that every poodle they breed is to the standard, as healthy as possible, and as sound as possible. Choosing breeding partners is very involved also. Strong traits are bred for, weak traits are bred away from, every breeding is a calculation of what will be improved by doing this?

Microsoft Word - Illustrated Study Poodle Breed (aircastlekennels.com)

This thread has a lot of discussion on why conformation matters. It's 41 posts long and I think it's worth your time.
(9) Conformation? | Poodle Forum

Along with structure and temperament, there is health to consider. For standard poodles, there were several breeding bottlenecks some decades back that concentrated some very good genes in the population and also inadvertently concentrated some very unhealthy genes thru the population. This is why the breed parent clubs write health testing recommendations and a Code of Ethics for breeders.

Standard Poodle

• Hip Dysplasia (One of the following)
  OFA Evaluation ➚
  PennHIP Evaluation
• Eye Examination
  Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
• Health Elective (One of the following)
  OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
  OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
  Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
  Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
  Basic Cardiac Exam ➚

The PCA Foundation recommends all three electives for Standard Poodles and also strongly recommends the following DNA tests from an OFA listed lab to easily avoid breeding two mutation carriers to each other and producing affected puppies: DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEwS) and DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)

--

Breeders who say they're "health testing" but are doing nothing more than a DNA panel are using the language of a quality breeder but are not backing those words up with the right stuff.

Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America

As a Breeder, I

• Plan each breeding selectively toward the goal on improvement of the Poodle, not purely for financial gain
• Keep accurate records as per AKC rules and regulations
• Test all breeding stock , as appropriate, for each variety’s genetic and acquired disorders
• Remain abreast of new genetic testing available and readily participates in current genetic studies
• Never intentionally allow a Poodle to be bred to any other breed
• Screen prospective buyers or individuals with whom a dog is placed
• Provide a written contract for all interactions involving the breeding, selling, co-owning, placing and rehoming of my stock
• Sell puppies with individual records to include:
  • A Bill of Sale stating the conditions (terms) on which the sale was made
  • A Pedigree of at least 3 generations
  • Up-to-date health record
  • Proof of genetic/acquired condition testing
  • A reasonable time frame for a return
  • Never release a puppy before 8 weeks
  • Sell non-breeding quality puppies with limited registration
  • Require all non-breeding quality puppies sold to be neutered/spayed
• Assume responsibility for the well-being of all dogs sold including taking back adults in emergency situations and finding homes for rescues that have been identified from my breeding when possible

As part of my selection as a member of PCA, I acknowledge the responsibilities inherit in that membership and pledge to follow the Code of Ethics of the Poodle Club of America. In addition, if I find I am no longer willing to abide by this document, I agree to submit my resignation form PCA.

Poodle Club of America and Affiliate club members are expected to adhere to the following rules.
1. All Poodle Club of America members and affiliate clubs shall be dedicated to the preservation and welfare of the Poodle Breed.

2. All PCA members and affiliate clubs must ensure that their actions are in the best interest of the breed.

3. Members will at all times, whether at home, traveling, at shows or at motels, display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect credit upon the breed and the club.

4. Novices are encouraged to seek the advice and assistance of more experienced breeders and owners, and those sought out will graciously provide assistance and share the benefits of their knowledge.

5. Each member of PCA who is a breeder will keep accurate records of breeding as per American Kennel Club Rules and Regulations, pedigrees and registrations. They will also maintain the best possible standard of care for their dogs with regard to proper nutrition, housing, cleanliness and veterinary care.

6. Breeding programs should exist for the betterment of the breed. Each member will plan their breeding program to maintain and intensify the virtues of type, quality, temperament, and eliminate faults. All breeding shall be done selectively towards this goal and not purely for financial gain. Breeders may not intentionally allow a poodle to be bred to any other breed of dog.

7. All poodles under consideration for breeding will be tested for hereditary defects common to the breed. Proof of this testing must be made available to puppy buyers. Depending upon the variety of the breed the common tests are as follows:

• Eyes – PRA &Cataracts
• (Yearly Ophthalmologist Exam)
• C.E.R.F.
• PRCD
• Hips – Penn.Hip/ O.F.A. (X-Rays of the hips- Permanent after 2 years)
• X-ray- Stifles and or elbows.
• Von Willebrands ( Bleeding disorder)
• Skin – S.A.- Sebaceous Adenitis
• Thyroid

8. Buyers will be carefully screened for puppies and/or older dogs that are sold or placed.

9. Puppies will be sold with individual records. To be included:

• Bill of Sale. Stating the conditions ( Terms) on which this sale was made.
• Pedigree of the puppy ( at least 3 generation)
• Written instructions about care & feeding.
• All health records up to Date i.e. worming, shots and kennel cough.
• The breeder will state in writing that the purchaser has (a time specified by the breeder) hours to have the puppy checked out by a veterinarian and will be urged to do so.
• If the puppy is unsuitable due to a pre- existing medical condition or genetic fault based upon veterinary findings, it may be returned during the time period stated in the contract for either a replacement or refund of purchase price.
• Proof of genetic testing will be provided to puppy buyers.
• “ Pet Puppies” will be sold with” Limited registration” Unless the puppy is sold as a show prospect, you will require them to spay or neuter the puppy.
• Above all NO PUPPY WILL BE RELEASED BEFORE 8 (EIGHT) WEEKS OF AGE.

10. The Breeder is responsible for any and all poodles that he/she has bred for the life of each poodle. If at any time the owner cannot keep the poodle, the breeder will take the dog back and decide what is best for the poodle in question, including placing or euthanizing the dog. It is the breeder’s place to take this responsibility. This helps take the burden off rescue groups for the breed.

11. A breeder of a rescued Poodle, who is a member of PCA will, upon notification, provide for the Poodle’s care.

12. In all questions of ethics, covered or not covered by this Code, the individual member shall act solely in the best interests of the breed, and the membership as a whole. He/she shall also willingly aid any fellow member in upholding these interests.

13. Members shall bear in mind that a Code of Ethics is more than a set of rules; it is a commitment to a high standard of practice in owning and breeding and that adherence to the spirit of the Code is as important as adherence to its law.

--

Eddie comes from a well known line, Majestic, which has been defunct for some years, and has some other well known kennel lines in his background.

Joan Mistkowski of Majestic Poodles started with Shangri-la's reds in the 1980's.
Majestic kennel in Florida continued to perfect and concentrate on the Red Standard Poodle,
perfecting the Red Color, as other kennels infused other lines and other colors.
Majestic Kennel has created some of the most stunning reds in existance known today.
Joan Carol Mistkowski passed away in 2009.

Joan's daughter, Sueann Brennan, attempted unsuccessfully to run Majestic kennel
for a year, before she too passed away on November 10, 2009.
~ All Joan's Poodles were rescued by
Florida Poodle Rescue because of their deplorable condition and
~ ALL rescued Majestic Poodles, were spayed or neutered, ending Joan's breeding program ~
Joan's grandson inherited the property in 2011, claiming to have 6 of Sueanne's Poodles
and says that through in-breeding, son to mother, they have been trying to resurrect the line

From <Standard Poodle Red Standard Poodle History>

Standard Poodle Red Standard Poodle History (bijoupoodles.com)

That info combined with this from a different source brings more questions.

Description:
Father is a old Majestic line breed by Joan Mistkowski from frozen semen from in 2004 His name is __ .This will be a great breeding and a one time litter.

Eddie wouldn't be listed as one of the offspring on OFA because there's no testing on him published on that database yet, so that's no surprise.

What's unanswered is who got hold of Eddie's sire's sperm and who was bred with it since it's unlikely that he's still alive and breeding at nearly 17 years old. No dams are listed on OFA for the offspring.

Some pedigree databases list ___ as a dam of several of the offspring listed on OFA which might be a lead but I'm out of my element there. She has Majestic, Torbec, and Palmares behind her as well as some others I'm not familiar with.

She's not Eddie's dam tho. Even if alive, she' be far too old to be bred. This still leaves half of Eddies heritage a mystery.

That's a big stumbling block when choosing breeding pairs. Fully half of Eddie's history is unknown, unless you have that info. It's not just two dogs being mated, it's both of their family trees, good and bad, healthy and not, weak and strong.

 

you can’t say you know that puppy’s temperament, personality, intelligences,

I forgot to respond to this. Another quality of a conscientious breeder is that the pups are raised as family, in their home, with the breeder being very hands-on with the puppies.
(See this very long thread here

Mama Papaya has arrived!

Papaya has officislly made it to ThePoodlesMoody home for wayward poodles. 😂 I figured she needed her own thread! So far, so good. She is MARKEDLY in better shape than Nasa was. Looks like she's got a blocked tear duct and her feet mats need shaving and I think she looks maybe a little thin, but...

www.poodleforum.com

ThePoodlesMoody has been serving as a substitute breeder since pregnant Papaya came to her home.)
The breeder will be watching the pups health, actively doing their early learning and socialization, and will know these pups personalities very well, and will shape them with exposure to life with humans.
Some breeders use additional methods like Puppy Culture and ENS in daily life and some will also do temperament testing, see Puppy Temperament Tests: A Tool to Help with Placement – American Kennel Club (akc.org)

While the new family may not have that daily experience, the good breeder will. Applications and conversations between the breeder and new family will help the breeder know the right puppy with the temperament and drive that will suit that family.

 

Figured I'd chime in.

Yep. I'm the cuckoo with Papaya and her bottle fed rescue litter. 😂

It's been an entire nonstop journey of hard work. Granted, most whelping journeys go more smoothly than mine. But there are also many who go much worse. Even if you take out the emergency surgeries, the round -the-clock bottle feedings, and the extra steps taken for rescue pups... it's STILL so much work. So much. I have cut my hours at work to nearly nothing because the babies consume so much of my time while I really do socialization protocols and basic care.

Im following Puppy Culture and most of the Avidog practices too. Each day there are tasks to do with the puppies. I've had to cast out a wide net of people to guarantee safe and varied interactions with people. I've had to make so many last minute store runs or Amazon purchases. Daily each puppy needs at least a half bath from messy puppy food eating or walking through a fresh pile of poo. They need LOTS of time outside the pen. They need car trips and outside time and novel exposures, and all of those outings need to be calculated for risk and mitigated so that the experiences are positive ones. Socialization isn't just about exposure... it's about positive exposure, and that is something much harder to do. Here in my house I have my husband and my mother in law and my three children to help. We are all still busy. I'm not at all.exagerrating when I say I do at least 3 loads of laundry every single day, and the dishwasher runs just as often. Even with the rescue supplying many things for me, I've spent over a thousand dollars on this litter.

It is A LOT. A lot a lot a lot of work to do puppy raising right. And I only have a litter of 5. My friend has a rescue poodle litter of eight, and she's run into just as many freak emergency problems as I have.

Now. I will say that maybe you're like me! Maybe you're just plain silly enough to want to do all of that work. I won't say it isn't rewarding and amazing to do. It definitely is! If you want to take on all of this work and you're able to do it, then that's the first step!

Second I'd say you have to be comfortable with medical uncertainty. Will your dam be a good.mother. Will having a litter harm her mental or physical health. Are you willing to step in and make hard decisions about medical outcomes and can you handle the pain of losing a puppy? Because even the best breeders experience loss. I've "shaken" baby puppies before to get them to breathe and it feels like the longest minutes ever just hoping for babies to breathe. Sometimes they never do.

Then last. After all of that... you gotta make sure your dog has qualities that aren't just meh, but truly outstanding. Health tested, good structure, good temperament... the whole nine yards.

If you can check all of the boxes and can commit to finding and placing your puppies in good homes no matter what, then go for it! I don't see anything wrong with breeding if you're willing to accept risks and really put in the work for the right dog. I think the reason most people are against it is because we know the average person isn't willing to do all.of the legwork. If you are, though, we'd love to followlo you on your journey.

 

Poodles, unlike many other large breeds, live a long and active life. From that perspective alone, I believe it is very important, that the dog you bring home is as healthy and sound as possible. Luca our tpoo is quite the acrobat. The kennel we bought him from breeds with conformation, health and temperament as a priority. That she also breeds striking red tpoos is just a bonus. I am hoping he will live approximately 15 years and therefore I want him to have as pain free life as he deserves.
Our spoo Matteo is also bred with conformation, health and temperament as a priority. I would wish for him a good, healthy, long life. His dam and sire are agility champions. His breeder has been breeding for 20 + years. When Matteos litter was born, approximately a week and a half old, all the pup's got ill. They were rushed to the emergency university vet and the vets there said it was a cold virus. They have in the past lost a pup or two, but this time they were fighting to keep them alive. They had to feed them, treat them etc. every hour round the clock. The emergency vet believed none would survive. A week later, all but three had died. Unhappy expecting puppy parents were told they were no longer on the short list of receiving a pup. The breeder was exhausted and despite breeder insurance, alot poorer. Thankfully we were chosen and matched with Matteo.
I have read about other spoos turning 14, 15 and 16 here on this forum. That alone is reason enough for me to look for a breeder who is responsible and loves the breed enough to try and ensure sound dogs.
My experience with breeders has been, dedicated hard working and a great love for their chosen breed. I have felt like I have been chosen for one of their pups, rather than me choosing. I am in awe at the work they do and know they actually don't become millionaires whilst giving us fantastic additions to our family. I love the serious dedicated work done.

 

Adding my two cents to all the excellent feedback you’ve gotten:

If you or anyone reading this is serious about breeding, please require that every buyer sign a contract stating they will (and must) return their puppy to you—at any stage of that puppy’s life—should they no longer be able to provide him or her with a safe and loving home.

And hold up your end of that bargain, too, standing by the puppies you brought into this world until the end of their days.

This contract, in my opinion, is the #1 difference between a breeder who is part of the solution and a breeder who is part of the problem.

I don’t believe poodles are well-suited to inexperienced homes, draconian handlers, or lifestyles requiring they endure long periods of solitude. The risk of them falling into a physically or mentally damaging situation is (sadly) way too high for me to ever be comfortable vetting homes for puppies I’ve brought into this world. It was hard enough parting with a single foster puppy years ago, especially after learning a little about rescue and what too often happens once a dog is re-homed and out of your control.

 

Thank you so much @cowpony I am very touched by your words.

We can discuss endlessly the technicalities of responsible breeding. In fact we could organise a whole conference on it and we still wouldn't be able to cover everything.

The question I think you are hinting at and one that I think is worth exploring within the purebred community is: Is it possible to for a pet owner to have a a litter or two and for that to be responsible and ethical breeding.

I would actually say that since we no longer have the big kennels of the olden days it might actually be beneficial to purebred ethical breeding for people to become temporarily involved with one or two litters rather than restricting purebred breeding to only those who are ready to dedicate decades to breeding and competing, but only WHEN done in certain ways. One of the most difficult aspect of responsible breeding for newbies like me or for pet owners who just want a litter or two is how are we going to breed not just ethically (as in have all health tests done) but also purposefully (as in having a goal in mind, breeding not just for tomorrow but for the future of the breed).

In fact, having starting to take my own steps into breeding (no litter yet!) I have found that the most decisive factor in my willingness to go forward has been the support and experience of my mentor. I would not be considering breeding Evra if I didn't have a mentor with 20 year experience holding my hand. I can do lots of things that would make my breeding look brilliant on paper. I can test for every health condition possible. Show my girl, maybe get some wins on her. Pair her with a winning champion. Use puppy culture etc. Everything that will make me tick all the boxes we frequently talk about and I could theoretically do all of those things on my own.

But without the experience of my breeder I don't think I would actually be breeding purposefully, I would be breeding in order to tick all the right boxes and ticking those boxes doesn't guarantee that you are breeding purposefully. I can choose a winning stud but due to my lack of experience in interpreting the breed standard that stud might be lacking in the same ways that my girl is. Without understanding the pedigrees and having that insider knowledge I could be introducing into my puppies faults that had previously been kept out of my girls line.

So how can a pet owner breed purposefully when breeding purposefullly requires experience and commitment to the breed, to a sport and to breeding over multiple years if not nearly a lifetime.

My hypothesis is that one can breed in order to contribute to someone elses purposeful breeding. Meaning that you shouldn't just have your dogs breeders permission, but they should be actively involved in the process. So effectively the pet owner would be contributing to the purposeful breeding of the original breeder. Like a temporary satellite operation of that kennel. This could also be helpful for breeders because sometimes puppies mature in surprising ways and the puppy you sold as a pet turns out to be a stunning example of the breed whose genetic contintuation would be beneficial. This could also be particularly helpful for rare breeds where you can't afford to lose as many dogs from the gene pool or for toy breeds who tend to have smaller litters.

But for a pet owner to consider whether this is something that they want to be involved in, especially if they have a female, there must also be a very good understanding of the risks and challenges of pregnancy and raising a litter. And as others have mentioned, be prepared to take any puppies back if their homes don't work out.

I also do suspect that there is a cultural aspect involved here. In Europe, especially with poodles who are very high maintenance to show, it is not not unusual or frowned upon to breed untitled females as long as they are coming from successful lines, are paired with a good stud and are good representations of their breed. I have heard that in the US this is not as commonly accepted.

 

I also do suspect that there is a cultural aspect involved here. In Europe, especially with poodles who are very high maintenance to show, it is not not unusual or frowned upon to breed untitled females as long as they are coming from successful lines, are paired with a good stud and are good representations of their breed. I have heard that in the US this is not as commonly accepted.

Something I've noticed about Germany, at least, is a long tradition of evaluations rather than conformation championships being used as a prerequisite for breeding certain types of working animals. German Shepherds went through Schutzhund. Sport horses (Hanoverian, Oldenburg, etc.) went through Warmblood evaluations.

 

A good example of purposeful breeding is the effort of breeders over the past decades to improve the quality in red and apricot poodles of all sizes. As a result there has been improvement in temperament and conformation (at least so I have heard).

 

Okay, so I’m just going to go a head and take the bait.

Why are soooo many of y’all here on the poodle forum against having your dogs breed? If you have a not only a good but very loving, happy, great temperament, very smart, healthy (so far) AKC registered, Beautiful poodle…and you are a responsible, loving, crossing all the T’s dotting all the I’s owner…. Take in all the information concerning “get with like minded people( check) Join poodle club( check) go to dog show ( check) get in touch with your breeder, are they willing ( check) know the test that needs to be done (check)
Why the constant asking , questioning why do you want to breed your poodle?!
The reminder that even if you do, there’s no assurance this puppy would be anything like the one you have.

When you put a deposit down on a puppy you’ve only seen a photo of, or even if you saw the puppy at 3 weeks… you can’t say you know that puppy’s temperament, personality, intelligences, Health.
So if you buy a poodle puppy from a “reputable” breeder and you breed this puppy with a “reputable” breeder after making sure all testing has been done!
What’s the difference of you buy a puppy from a breeder?
Because I would love to know😁

Talk to your dogs breeder. Whats your contract like? Whats your dogs pedegree? What purpose are you breeding your dog for? If its for profits or for puppies **** dont Your back yard breeding. When you breed you breed to improve the breed, you show your dog is worth breeding, you dont make any money off if it, you know about genetics, you breed to standard, you spend thousands on OFA health testing ir whichever is avalable in your country and you do all the ones as demanded by the parent breed club and more.

and there is no buying a puppy from a ‘reputable’ breeder. You buy a puppy from an ethical breeder and thats that. From someone who has the entire dogs pedegree, all where fully health tested, all where champions and titled, All had good structure and proof of being temperamentally sound. Are you willing to take back all the puppies you bred in a heart beat if something happens? Are you willing to spend hours desensitizing your pups and doing early stimulation? are you willing to pursue people if they break your contract? Are you willing to talk to your lawyer to create a legaly binding contract?
[Edited by moderator to remove profanity]

 

I think the important question is why do you want to breed your dog?

Puppies aren't replacements for their parents. And good puppy care doesn't seem to result in high profits if they're sold. (If breeders are getting paid by the hour there is no profit!) And the risk of maternal health concerns is always a factor. So what motivations out weight all this?

 

I did a lot of fostering, taming and caring for cats, stray, elderly and feral. I have hand reared kittens. It is a chore, a lot of work to raise babies of any sort. Dealing with hormonal animals is a whole other level of aargh.
Not all dogs sould be bred and not all owners should be breeders. I had three retired breeding dogs, they were happy just to be pets.

 

@Good Eddie Boy as you can see, this is a topic that people feel rather strongly about. I don't want you to feel like we're jumping on you, though.

The truth is, if there weren't breeders, we wouldn't have the poodles we love. But it's important to go about things in a way that doesn't create more heartache. Yes, health testing, yes, educating yourself, yes, vetting the potential owners, yes, weighing the risks of something horrible going wrong with your beloved dog. There's no guarantee that things will go wrong. But there's no guarantee that things will go exactly right, either. For many of us, the risks are too great. That's why it's important to do things carefully, not casually.

 

When I bought Misha I considered breeding some day. I bought a well bred dog from a well known breeder. Her sire was a Grand Champion and #5 dog in the nation at the time. Her mother was a Champion and virtually every dog in her lineage was a champion. I had a great mentor. I would show her and prove she was an exceptional representation of her breed. Do all health testing etc.

I took her to her first show. She won the puppy class, then won the breed class, then won her group, and took Reserve Best in Show. I was told her movement was the best the judge had seen in 20 years.

Then she started getting sick often and wasn't growing the way she should. After many vet appointments and a trip to Dr. Jean Dodds herself, it was determined she has external liver shunt. We immediately had her spayed and her show/breeding career was ended.

Her breeder was/is well known in the show world and did everything right. She still got a puppy that was not healthy. Was it genetic? That is still a mystery. But it does show that the best of the best can and will end up sometimes with sick dogs. Breeding dogs that aren't the best of the best would increase that chance. It was heartbreaking for us and we deal with her liver problems daily.

Looking back I am so happy we didn't breed because the chance of losing her in the birthing process would have been devastating.

 

I love looking at a breeders work and their work involves competing in conformation…obedience… rally.. list goes on. That right there shows a commitment to prove that the dog has nerves of steel.. is stable.. and has all the wonderful traits of a poodle. A dog worthy of being bred. This dog will then pass down these wonderful traits to their pups. Yes the pups may vary in temperament but genetics matter.
There is a lot of work and dedication that goes into it that so you end up with a steady and stable dog.

In Germany.. German shepherds all have to compete in sport to be bred.. this means the dog is also stable.. confident.. and can work under pressure. Many of the German shepherds in North America are nervy and anxious and this can be dangerous.
So I personally don’t think pet breeders should breed.
An ethical breeder is already producing sound dogs for pet homes that carry all the wonderful breeds of said breed.

The more you learn about ethical breeding.. the more you appreciate all the hard work and education these passionate breeders are putting forth. They are so meticulous with everything.

I think the term ethical breeding is becoming so much more popular due to social media and it’s great for dogs and dog owners. I know that I’m learning everyday and I enjoy sharing this info with extended family and friends.

 

The Why,
The thought of having another puppy/ poodle is appealing to me, at the same time this is being talked about Way in advance as my boy is young and as Ive said, I’m in no hurry, things change and my feelings may be different in a year from now.
Why I said
“Ok going to take the bait”
I love to bass fish … it’s just a saying
Didn’t mean any insult.


I mentioned a puppy in excitement of Eddie, and was very quickly told
If you’re planning to you need to do this, this, this,and this, and no time to waste!
So I jumped on it ! Made a list and started checking them off. In touch with breeder “ breeding rights” breeder was excited, “paper work to be done, Eddie comes from A Great line” your on the right road, keep up the good work, contact me when you’re ready.
I started checking of the list of “ if you plan on breeding “ only to get more Why? You shouldn’t! Just get another puppy instead of breeding!
My “okay taking the bait/ okay what’s the deal?”
Was to get down to the nitty-gritty of why so many are so against, no mater how much you check off the list supplied ?

Not addressing because of personal situation that doesn’t apply to me.

Not wanting puppies in my house that doesn’t apply to me, I wouldn’t have the puppies here.

This would take place at the breeders , and Yes that is a concern, travel, leaving my boy with Anyone is a stressful thought and right now is problem enough to be a deal breaker. Still not clear on this part, but When it comes time if Im not comfortable with the setup I just won’t do it!

Testing, I plan on doing this even if it doesn’t result into breeding.

The big one “ have you considered the other puppies and who will be getting them?
All of us have poodles, some have two or three, they all had siblings that the breeder hopefully made sure went to good.

Do people pay big bucks get a puppy and then decide “ this is too much!” Yes all the time, maybe even some of my Eddie’s siblings or your poodles siblings… that is something none of us can control or the breeders. Return to breeder contracts, and some people won’t even do that.

When someone wants to become a breeder! That doesn’t apply to me.

I have been keeping up with Papaya’s thread, very scary situation, and she’s done a great job in handling all of it!
I don’t think I could, but I won’t have the bitch or the litter.

I don’t Facebook or Instagram
But once again, I do have the male

If your choice in life is to get a dog from a rescue unit, I have in the past I’ve rescued two dogs in the past. And they ended up being great dogs.
that’s not my choice at this time.
kudos to you and everyone should rescue at least one dog in their life!

My breeder does have a very good contract set in place, I signed it and would not be able to go forward without his assistance.
I have traced Eddie’s Pedegree way past what AKC sent me, and have actually started a spreadsheet on it.
It take time as it really fans out, so it’s a play time… it’s just interesting to me.
Did the same Family tree research years ago.

I have a mentor set in place for Eddie’s confirmation class I plan on putting Eddie in, that I’ve already discussed with trainer where Eddie is taking his CGC.
Even if I don’t end up breeding “for a puppy” I want to get his confirmation.

Whether I have my Eddie breed for a puppy, or I buy another puppy… there will be siblings and it will be the breeder’s responsibility to find them good homes and have good contracts, not mine

Wether I get a puppy that is or isn’t Eddie’s
I can’t assure what that puppy’s Health, personality, temperament would be, although it use to be stud has pick of the litter… haven’t gotten to that question yet, but that will come with other questions to breeder when the time comes

I know a lot of poodle , as well as Labor and other breeds owners are “if you don’t have them in shows, field work, you are not deserving of that dog and it’s breed.”
I got a lot of peoples opinion on that subject with my labradors especially with Zachary…. But that is something humans have decided, not the dogs ! Zachary had an amazing life and never Entered competition, guess what… he didn’t miss it😁
I do have Eddie working on agility, and plan on putting him in a class, he’s been to one, but I didn’t like them or their course, now I have my training facility.
I’m not putting him in agility for competition, I’m doing it for his health.

My plans for Eddie has been in works every since I got him, therapy dog for the children’s hospital close by, that’s why all the costumes and outfits, and yes I have a mentor from the poodle club I joined.

And lastly; I don’t feel attacked, i just want it all on the table, I would have preferred the response I’ve gotten on this thread, then the “do this, and this , and this… “only to hear after all of that “ you shouldn’t breed your dog.” Then again… it did light a fire under my butt and I’m glad I’ve done the things I have and knowing a clear path going forward!
Thank you all, and I hope I haven’t offended or hurt anyone’s feelings… I’m tough as nails and sometimes I don’t word things gingerly enough

PS; my genetics !
that have been handed down through my family;
Dyslexic, ADHD,( which was added as later as adult)with a speech … issue
Throw in Texas & French cajun…
Sorry for All my poor texting… my microphone is saying what! 🤣😂🤣
much better in math, mechanics, and technical 😁
Not great in crowds or approached by strangers🤣

 

The Why,
The thought of having another puppy/ poodle is appealing to me, at the same time this is being talked about Way in advance as my boy is young and as Ive said, I’m in no hurry, things change and my feelings may be different in a year from now.
Why I said
“Ok going to take the bait”
I love to bass fish … it’s just a saying
Didn’t mean any insult.


I mentioned a puppy in excitement of Eddie, and was very quickly told
If you’re planning to you need to do this, this, this,and this, and no time to waste!
So I jumped on it ! Made a list and started checking them off. In touch with breeder “ breeding rights” breeder was excited, “paper work to be done, Eddie comes from A Great line” your on the right road, keep up the good work, contact me when you’re ready.
I started checking of the list of “ if you plan on breeding “ only to get more Why? You shouldn’t! Just get another puppy instead of breeding!
My “okay taking the bait/ okay what’s the deal?”
Was to get down to the nitty-gritty of why so many are so against, no mater how much you check off the list supplied ?

Not addressing because of personal situation that doesn’t apply to me.

Not wanting puppies in my house that doesn’t apply to me, I wouldn’t have the puppies here.

This would take place at the breeders , and Yes that is a concern, travel, leaving my boy with Anyone is a stressful thought and right now is problem enough to be a deal breaker. Still not clear on this part, but When it comes time if Im not comfortable with the setup I just won’t do it!

Testing, I plan on doing this even if it doesn’t result into breeding.

The big one “ have you considered the other puppies and who will be getting them?
All of us have poodles, some have two or three, they all had siblings that the breeder hopefully made sure went to good.

Do people pay big bucks get a puppy and then decide “ this is too much!” Yes all the time, maybe even some of my Eddie’s siblings or your poodles siblings… that is something none of us can control or the breeders. Return to breeder contracts, and some people won’t even do that.

When someone wants to become a breeder! That doesn’t apply to me.

I have been keeping up with Papaya’s thread, very scary situation, and she’s done a great job in handling all of it!
I don’t think I could, but I won’t have the bitch or the litter.

I don’t Facebook or Instagram
But once again, I do have the male

If your choice in life is to get a dog from a rescue unit, I have in the past I’ve rescued two dogs in the past. And they ended up being great dogs.
that’s not my choice at this time.
kudos to you and everyone should rescue at least one dog in their life!

My breeder does have a very good contract set in place, I signed it and would not be able to go forward without his assistance.
I have traced Eddie’s Pedegree way past what AKC sent me, and have actually started a spreadsheet on it.
It take time as it really fans out, so it’s a play time… it’s just interesting to me.
Did the same Family tree research years ago.

I have a mentor set in place for Eddie’s confirmation class I plan on putting Eddie in, that I’ve already discussed with trainer where Eddie is taking his CGC.
Even if I don’t end up breeding “for a puppy” I want to get his confirmation.

Whether I have my Eddie breed for a puppy, or I buy another puppy… there will be siblings and it will be the breeder’s responsibility to find them good homes and have good contracts, not mine

Wether I get a puppy that is or isn’t Eddie’s
I can’t assure what that puppy’s Health, personality, temperament would be, although it use to be stud has pick of the litter… haven’t gotten to that question yet, but that will come with other questions to breeder when the time comes

I know a lot of poodle , as well as Labor and other breeds owners are “if you don’t have them in shows, field work, you are not deserving of that dog and it’s breed.”
I got a lot of peoples opinion on that subject with my labradors especially with Zachary…. But that is something humans have decided, not the dogs ! Zachary had an amazing life and never Entered competition, guess what… he didn’t miss it😁
I do have Eddie working on agility, and plan on putting him in a class, he’s been to one, but I didn’t like them or their course, now I have my training facility.
I’m not putting him in agility for competition, I’m doing it for his health.

My plans for Eddie has been in works every since I got him, therapy dog for the children’s hospital close by, that’s why all the costumes and outfits, and yes I have a mentor from the poodle club I joined.

And lastly; I don’t feel attacked, i just want it all on the table, I would have preferred the response I’ve gotten on this thread, then the “do this, and this , and this… “only to hear after all of that “ you shouldn’t breed your dog.” Then again… it did light a fire under my butt and I’m glad I’ve done the things I have and knowing a clear path going forward!
Thank you all, and I hope I haven’t offended or hurt anyone’s feelings… I’m tough as nails and sometimes I don’t word things gingerly enough

PS; my genetics !
that have been handed down through my family;
Dyslexic, ADHD,( which was added as later as adult)with a speech … issue
Throw in Texas & French cajun…
Sorry for All my poor texting… my microphone is saying what! 🤣😂🤣
much better in math, mechanics, and technical 😁
Not great in crowds or approached by strangers🤣

I answered from a personal standpoint, as I don't feel I have the right to tell other people what decisions they should or should not make. I can make suggestions, point out the "best practices" or precautions, but any decisions are yours and yours alone. After all, these are not my poodles being bred, and they would not be my puppies to care for.

Stud service in exchange for a puppy is rather different (much less risk) than breeding your female. If the breeder/owner of the dam is taking the job of finding homes for the puppies, then your responsibility there is nil as well. I can only suggest making sure your Eddie Boy is health tested and that you go into this not expecting Eddie 2.0, but that you find joy in the puppy for his or her own merits.

I know a lot will disagree with my view of the show ring, but I consider that much less important than health and temperament testing. With wiggies, hair dye, and various sprays, it is not a straight up honest evaluation of the dog. I consider the wink, wink, nudge nudge portion to be unethical and dishonest on its own. But that's just my personal opinion. As I said, the dog's temperament is more important. There are other ways to test that than the show ring.

I hope you do well in all your endeavors. Be they breeding, dog sports, or just enjoying Eddie for being Eddie.

 

Well the whole point of competition is to prove your dog does well under pressure etc.

Take the German shepherd for instance. In North America.. they have a reputation of being nervous and anxious dogs that are fairly reactive.
In Germany… every German shepherd that is bred must do sports to prove they have nerves of steal etc and exhibit the breed standard so that they are a STABLE family pet.
People that know this breed will tell you that there is a huge difference between the NA line vs the European line. Of course there are working lines and show lines one Europe too but both lines need to do sport to prove they are stable. This makes for a safe family pet etc. That’s why even breeders here import their dogs because of the major difference and the European line being more of a stable pet etc.

Now in terms of the Poodle.. you may think your dog is perfect but maybe they don’t perform well? If you look at the breed standard.. the dog shouldbe self confident and nervousness and shyness is a fault. So these exceptional breeders are taking their dogs out to performance to prove their dogs also have nerves of steel and are able to perform. This lines up with the breeds past of being a very dynamic dog from being a gun dog to circus performing to being used in war. A very expressive and dynamic breed.
Also by testing your dog in obedience competitions you are PROVING your dog is BIDDABLE which is what the breed standard states. Everyone thinks their dog is perfect but is it actually exhibiting the breed standard? Are you improving the breed someway by introducing your dog into the gene pool?

I spoke to someone on their third standard poodle( all bought fromethical breeders) and all her dogs have been confident.. even tempered etc. She knows a doodle breeder who’s used a standard poodle who is shy and anxious. You hear from people that poodles can be anxious and nervous in situations but is this actually the breed standard? Or is this a result of a popularity boom where lots of maybe well intentioned byb startung breeding their perfect dog who maybe didn’t actually meet breed standard.

If the poodle has been used in so many ways.. this means the dog should be adaptable and even tempered not nervous etc.
And you can’t know this about your dog unless the dog competes in various competitions and shows. The you will know if he meets breed standard.

So when you use a very critical eye…if you arent competing with your dog.. you aren’t proving the dog advances the breed in anyway.

Just look to what happened with the Doberman due to popularity.. plagued with illness.

I say this with all due respect.

 

The appeal of conformation showing for me, is that it proves the dogs can handle a very stressful environment. Dogs barking, people all over, weird place, running aorund a ring eithout lunging at the other dogs, and hours of rather ridiculous grooming without biting the handler, and a stranger feeling them up.

But a Grand Champion vs a champion? Don't care. And, assuming there's nothing horribly obviously wrong, in structure, an agility, obedience, herding, or other title that takes some effort to obtain would be perfectly fine as an alternative to me.

I like the poodle standard - I think it's gone extreme in hair instead of extreme in, say, shortness of face or size of wrinkles. Hair I can cut off!

 

The appeal of conformation showing for me, is that it proves the dogs can handle a very stressful environment. Dogs barking, people all over, weird place, running aorund a ring eithout lunging at the other dogs, and hours of rather ridiculous grooming without biting the handler, and a stranger feeling them up.

But a Grand Champion vs a champion? Don't care. And, assuming there's nothing horribly obviously wrong, in structure, an agility, obedience, herding, or other title that takes some effort to obtain would be perfectly fine as an alternative to me.

I like the poodle standard - I think it's gone extreme in hair instead of extreme in, say, shortness of face or size of wrinkles. Hair I can cut off!

What do you mean by extreme in hair? As in extreme in the way the dog is showed in the ring?

 

Above; wink, wink, nudge, nudge ?
Will you please explain, I don’t understand that term

as for my thought that Eddie is a perfect dog is just that? I didn’t say he’s perfect for breeding, only time with testing will tell that, CGC; he’s around other dogs and people, ones who arent trained,ones who show some aggression… Eddie has been physically. attacked by Aggressive dogs 3 times and still relies on me that he’s safe, he has been in public , walking in and around crowds since he was a puppy and is Not nervous, nor is he difficult. He’s doing great! That not just my opinion, it’s everywhere I take him and by everyone he’s around every single time he’s in public and by his instructor in the CGC course🤗 and if you READ my post you’ll see he’ll be in agility, and confirmation so for now that’s good enough for me, Leaving time to live life and go camp, road trips extra. I have never raised a nervous or unstable dog.
Eddie’s blood line is traced back to Germany
And until you’ve train a dog to the sound of gun fire, you can’t say they won’t react.
I’ve been apart of that training with bird dogs.
Eddie has been trained not to react to , Thunder and lightning, loud industrial areas, and fireworks… since he was a pup. “Just a noise”
I will rely on my 2 mentors, instructors, vet, testing in all Aspects, and my own common sense and information going forward for what is right for Eddie’s growth, well being, and standers , as it should be, as each of you do.
I do understand what competition is for, but it is a way of life, that’s just not my way of life.
That doesn’t mean Eddie is any less A perfect dog, poodle, breeding stock, or that our choice are wrong.

 

Above; wink, wink, nudge, nudge ?
Will you please explain, I don’t understand that term

Misrepresentation, with it being an open "secret" that most (if not all) are aware of. Pretending that your dog's coat really is that marvelous, for example, when you've dyed the hair to hide the mismark, or added a wiggie to give the TK a fullness that it really doesn't have, or... And everyone knows this isn't true, but they're going along with it anyway. Hence the wink, because they're in on it.

 

As for the bitting a groomer after HOURS of grooming … Eddie will never be groomed to the point of having to bit to say “ give me a break! It can be done Humanly’😳

 

Eddie and I are taking a break, it’s a beautiful day, and between the death in our family (funeral & family time) yard work, two days of freelance work photography, and CGC class,
We need time out enjoying life … enjoy your day, your family, your pets !

 

Sorry for your loss.