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Discussion Starter #1
I thought this was an interesting topic that needed it's own thread.

I'm a great believer in waiting until Poodles are older before they are bred. Certainly it is important to wait until at least age two since hips can not be certified by OFA until then. I know some breeders love using Pennhip because they can have hips certified as early as age 16 weeks. However, I have seen Poodles hips change as they grow and mature and I have seen hips that pass at 6 months actually test as borderline dysplastic by age 2.

Another reason to wait is to see what happens to the overall health of a line. There are many, many things that we can't test for in Poodles and taking a wait and see approach is prudent. I have called just about all of my puppy buyers now, so I feel that I can make this public knowledge:

My foundation bitch, Sabrina, bloated two weeks ago. She gave us a scare, but she is fine. However, I have made the painful decision to spay her daughter, Izze. Bloat is genetic and I could not in good conscious breed Izze knowing that I might be passing the bloat problem down to another generation of dogs and owners. Now Sabrina was around 5.5 yrs old when Izze was born. Had I run out and bred Sabrina right when she was 2 and bred Izze right when she was 2, I would have three generations of dogs on the ground before I realized that I had a problem.

The only time I could justify breeding a Poodle early is if a breeder has an older bitch and she really, really wants to breed to a great stud who is young. The time could quickly run out for this pairing.

However, I have seen breeder use 8 mnth old studs and 14 mnth old bitches whose only redeeming qualities seem to be that they are intact. Blech!
 

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I completely agree!! I feel that breeding a young dog is like having a teenager get pregnant. They are not physically or mentally ready for a litter.
 

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Cbrand, I'm so happy you started this thread! I was actually considering starting one the other day on this exact topic. I have always thought 2 years old was the absolute earliest that a dog should be bred. You need to consider the mental and physical well being of both the bitch and the pups.

I started questioning myself when I looked around some "reputable" poodle breeders and noticed that they were breeding before the magic 2 year mark. So I'm happy to hear your thoughts on this, as they confirm what I have always understood to be best practice. That's certainly been the earliest age we would ever consider breeding a PWD, as they have many of the same health problems as Standard Poodles.
 

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My foundation bitch, Sabrina, bloated two weeks ago. She gave us a scare, but she is fine. However, I have made the painful decision to spay her daughter, Izze. Bloat is genetic and I could not in good conscious breed Izze knowing that I might be passing the bloat problem down to another generation of dogs and owners. Now Sabrina was around 5.5 yrs old when Izze was born. Had I run out and bred Sabrina right when she was 2 and bred Izze right when she was 2, I would have three generations of dogs on the ground before I realized that I had a problem.
I'm really sorry to hear about this. But I'm happy to hear from a responsible breeder who recognizes that they have to do what's best for the breed and all future pup owners.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I always say.... what's the hurry. There are other things to do with poodles than fill their uteruses. Breeders would be better off using the time to put performance titles on their breeding dogs.

But I know what the hurry is. Breeders want to turn a buck more quickly. Waiting 3-4 years means waiting for income.
 

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So two years is the minimum for a litter, but what about the other end of the page. What's too old for a bitch to produce a litter? Assuming she's healthy and has shown no genetic problems. For all the poo sizes, toy, mini, and standard.

We had a yorki in the salon a couple months back that accidently got pregnant at 12.. lol. She had had false pregnancies throughout her whole life, and I found it funny that she gave birth to two puppies after so many 'fake' babies, aka, her toys. She appeared to be fine, and was 14 years old when she came in. I KNOW that 12 is too old though..
 

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I always say.... what's the hurry. There are other things to do with poodles than fill their uteruses. Breeders would be better off using the time to put performance titles on their breeding dogs.
Completely agreed! I love to see titles on both ends of the name. Sadly it's not as common as it could (or should) be.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
So two years is the minimum for a litter, but what about the other end of the page. What's too old for a bitch to produce a litter? Assuming she's healthy and has shown no genetic problems. For all the poo sizes, toy, mini, and standard.
I think that is dependent on each bitch. Sabrina was an easy natural whelper actually put on weight after each whelp. I think she could have been bred at age 6, 7 or even 8.

I bred Gracy for the 1st time at age 6 and she had a pretty hard time. We knew that she wouldn't be able to do it again and we spayed her.

Bitches also lose fertility as they age. They will have smaller litters and more difficulty getting pregnant.
 

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According to this link, "As a rough approximation, the human equivalent of a one-year-old dog is between about 10 and 15 years—a one-year-old dog or cat has generally reached its full growth and is sexually mature, although it might still be lanky and need to fill in a more mature musculature, similar to human teenagers. The second year is equivalent to about another 3 to 8 years in terms of physical and mental maturity, and each year thereafter is equivalent to only about 4 or 5 human years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_in_dogs

So breeding a 1 year old dog (depending on breed/ size) is like breeding a 10 to 15 year old human, while breeding a 2 year old dog is like breeding a 13 to 23 year old, if I'm reading that right.
 

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I think for a first litter the dog should be between 3 and 5 years old as like it was mentioned hips needs to be scored and eyes need to be clear and most signs of PRA show up between 4 & 6 years of age.

As for when to stop breeding I think no bitch should be bred after 8yo, for a dog 10yo.
 

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The thing that really confuses me is why people would even want to breed younger than 2 years old. Looking at the litters produced by one breeder who regularly breeds Standard Poodles well under 2 years old, I'm seeing quite a few small litters (1 to 3 pups each) from a variety of different bitches. The average litter size for a SPoo is 7. Surely breeding at a young age is contributing to small litter sizes? So why not wait until the bitch is older and mature and get one good sized litter?
 

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I pretty much agree with cbrand. IMO when you are dealing with a breed that has a lot of health issues why would you want to breed early and risk your bloodline like that ?
 

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I think some is greed...but there is another thing and a lot of the people, DO NOT want to talk about and WILL NOT prove me wrong...is reds
The color in most cases fades out by the age of 2.5 years. Now try to convince the puppy buyer this apricot is dark red !!!!
 

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I think some is greed...but there is another thing and a lot of the people, DO NOT want to talk about and WILL NOT prove me wrong...is reds
The color in most cases fades out by the age of 2.5 years. Now try to convince the puppy buyer this apricot is dark red !!!!
LOL Its true , I am still waiting to see a dark red that over 3 years old. Most breeders i seen ONLY post young pictures and never recent picture.

I also LMAO when I see some breeder posting pictures of how red their dog is but I can tell they altered the pictures or take pictures of dogs in shade or take picture when its the golden hour of the day. :rolffleyes:

I think its sad that some of these breeders do these things to people looking for reds.
 

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I guess I can post pictures in three more months Lucy is almost 3.
I'm looking for BIG TROUBLE if I start or ask red breeders to help in a standardized color grading program......................
Whats that I hear.......nothing
 

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I guess I can post pictures in three more months Lucy is almost 3.
I'm looking for BIG TROUBLE if I start or ask red breeders to help in a standardized color grading program......................
Whats that I hear.......nothing
LOL you are dead on ! If you did start to ask for a color grading system none of the red breeders would like you hahahahah
 

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Discussion Starter #20
What would be the purpose of a color grading system? Is a dark Red somehow more desirable than an Apricot? Is a dark Brown more desirable than a Cafe?
 
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