Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,320 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
For the most part, I am against breeding dogs, so when I see breeders that say they breed to produce pets, it seriously bothers me. There are pets upon pets upon pets in rescues and shelters, and if that's all you are breeding for, then I feel that the breeder is merely contributing to pet overpopulation.
I know that many people get poodles because of allergies, and they are not that easy to come by in shelters or rescues, and some people want puppy/are not keen on shelter/rescue dogs, so there is a need for poodle breeders, but there are TONS of poodle breeders out there already. If all you are breeding for is pets, and all you're breeding pet quality poodles, then I don't think you should be breeding. Let the best of the best handle it, or step up your game.

I also have a problem with breeders that say they are bettering the breed, but their poodles are afraid of water and have no prey drive. Poodles are/were water retrievers. If you truly are bettering the breed, I want to see hunting titles.

I feel like bettering the breed in poodle terms has become all about conformation, and the problem with conformation is that is only about looks. Looks can be tweaked, especially with a good continental, to make the dog look balanced when they are not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,469 Posts
I have very mixed feelings about this whole issue. Let's face it, the vast majority of poodles of all sizes are going to live their lives as pets - and a strong prey drive can be a definite problem in a family dog (look at all those poor under stimulated hounds and BCs). Breeding for conformation can lead to the exaggerations and problems we have seen in other breeds - cavaliers are probably the most commonly quoted example, but any brachycephalic breed can show you what happens when "type" is taken to extremes, and there are huge heart aches going on in the German Shepherd community in the UK at the moment. Show kennels may now be moving away from line-breeding, but for decades that has been the accepted method of setting the type of a kennel breeding line. The number of dogs that will achieve full championship status is small - extremely small in the UK. Too tight a focus on breeding only with champions or near champions takes us into popular sire syndrome, and other negative results for the gene pool. I am not advocating puppy farms, or willy nilly back yard breeding. I do think that a breeder who tests their breeding animals, and produces sound, healthy pups of good temperament and good, if not perfect, conformation, and who is then socialising them well and choosing new owners with care, is going to meet the needs of many, many would-be poodle owners who have no intention of showing or breeding their dog - or of hunting - but want a healthy, happy family companion. As I noted on another topic - sometimes the best is the enemy of the good. Heresy, I know! The key words are Sound, Healthy, Good Temperament. I now wait to go down in a blaze of glory!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
94 Posts
Can I agree with both of you?

As a future puppy/dog buyer I want a pet that fits into my household. A dog that will swim in the lake with my kids while on vacation, play fetch in the yard, and maybe run agility.

Hunting is not something I will be doing but I want my dog to be able to function as a dog and not just look pretty.

Everybody wants something different in their pet but for someone like me a puppy from a good breeder who does all the testing and has excellent sound dogs is important. However, if the right adult dog comes around that needs to be adopted or re-homed we would jump at that opportunity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,488 Posts
FJM - you definitely give me food for thought. Looking at the history of dog breeds, often time I am amazed how far certain breeds have moved away from what they looked like 30, 40, 50 or even 100 years ago and is it really betterment of the breed. Certainly German Shepherd come to mind and they never used to look the way the look now. You couldn't gift me one, as I wouldn't accept. They look nothing like the shepherd I grew up with. They backs are so slanted now that they look like a child's little tikes slide. Their paws look like the dog never grew properly into them, they walk really weird, their hips are a disaster and I can't imagine them herding or being used for protection when they move like that. Now, I am talking about the GSD that are in AKC show. How can dogs like that be a betterment of the breed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,266 Posts
This is a really interesting discussion. I agree with what everyone says, although they are very different - I can see the different point of view. I think that even if you breed a puppy to better the breed, when you have a litter there will be different personalities and some will suit one family and some another.

My agility instructor is buying a black Standard poodle from a well known Canadian judge. She has a litter right now. She told him that she is keeping two of the puppies for show, and the other one that is not sold is too skittish for him. His wife has MS and is in a wheelchair and would be alone all day with the dog. So, while this dog is not suitable for his situation - its probable fine for someone else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
486 Posts
Poodles are generalists- bred to hunt as well as perform as circus dogs, among many tasks. Not everyone wants a high-drive poodle; they can be close to a BC as to needing a full time job.
It helps to know if a breeder has a goal in mind; what they are looking to obtain in their dogs.
A good place to learn about the past is the poodle history project:
Poodle History Project
(I just perused, and found my name is on the acknowlegements page!)
Carole
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Breeding is such a complex issue, it's not surprising we can't come to a consensus on this forum! I think with the way things are at the moment every litter should be very carefully considered, as I am hearing quite often that people have puppies left over in their litters, in all different breeds.

For me it's important to see at the least a conformation title on the dogs that are bred. While I am not a fan of the conformation world persay, I do think it is an individual evaluation of your dog that helps indicate whether it is of the quality to breed or not. Can you buy a title? Yes, but no system is perfect, so you need to look at other factors as well.

I also like to see some indication that other areas of performance have been persued such as agility or obedience. CGC is nice but honestly I don't put much stock in it. We got a CGC title on our first PWD who was completely dog aggressive. If he can get it, most dogs can probably get it.

Health testing goes without saying. Coming from a breed that takes health testing very, very seriously, it is my personal opinion that every breeder should be running the full health testing available to them.

And finally there's your gut feeling when you meet the breeder and their dogs (I rely a lot on this, which is why I didn't want to get a puppy shipped to me). I want to see that the dogs are part of the household and not just used to get ribbons or breed from. I'm uncomfortable when a breeder has too many dogs around as I just think there is a limit on how much attention you can give to dogs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,320 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Great points fjm. I realize that it is unrealistic for breeders to breed poodles with a strong prey drive and hunting instinct, as the average dog owner is likely not up to meet the needs of such a dog. However, just like breeding two championed dogs does not yeild 100% show quality pups, a litter out of two hunting dogs will not produce a litter full of high prey drive pups. There will always be pet pups produced out of working or show litters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
486 Posts
"a litter out of two hunting dogs will not produce a litter full of high prey drive pups"
One would think so... my "Kitty Litter" by a Bibelot line dog produced 11 pups with high drive. They all needed experienced poodle owners. It took Winnie, the pup I kept, 4 years to relax enough for my taste. She needed to be outside from sunup to sunset in her early years to burn fuel.
Carole
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,345 Posts
I'm training Vegas for hunting, though it's going to be personal hunting - I'm not sure if I want to do field test trials with him. We'll see. His prey drive is perfect, and although his parents didn't have hunt titles, they were healthy, tested dogs with good temperments.

Ha, sometimes his prey drive can be too high, the cat just jumped to baby gate to get in here and he was immediately staring/pointing the kitty down. The cat doesnt notice him, and Vegas doesn't move or do anything either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,648 Posts
This is a topic that comes up in breeding ANY animal.

Take horses. Warmbloods is what i'm involved with. T hey are bred for the olympic sports of jumping and dressage. What is today's top horses are SO much more refined- athletic etc from what we had 30 years ago. let alone a hundred years ago.

however that does mean those horses of that quality are NOT possible to sell to most riders. They are are what we call professional horses. We need breeders who also breed horses that the regular joe can ride. Yes- there are different breeds... bu there's thsoe of us (Ie the 'me's" of the world who can ride a warmblood who ride in that sport that we want a warmblood- but no way could i handle what an olympian high end professional rider can.

i'm not against those who breed for pets. Lets be honest- out of a litter often over 1/2 are placed in pet homes in ANY breed. I have a 'pro' level aussie. She came to me 1- because i do flyball so a hugely high drive dog is OK for me. 2- i'm used to off the wall energy and am set up for it. She'd never be a good dog in another less experienced home. Her brothers are on the whole easiest aussies EVER IMo. I know another breeder who was like "WOW they are TOUGH" (She's yet to meet kiah *L*)

So while we need peopel who breed for drive, we also need people who breed for a temperment that is more 'middle' road OF OUR BREED. Not saying we should be breeding for poodles who think their basset hounds. But we can't always breed for the HIGHEST DRIVE out there- as we then make our breed something that GOOD dog people can't handle. and that only the most experienced can handle. That's not IMO improving the breed either. Middle ground where art thou?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,145 Posts
For the most part, I am against breeding dogs, so when I see breeders that say they breed to produce pets, it seriously bothers me. There are pets upon pets upon pets in rescues and shelters, and if that's all you are breeding for, then I feel that the breeder is merely contributing to pet overpopulation.
I know that many people get poodles because of allergies, and they are not that easy to come by in shelters or rescues, and some people want puppy/are not keen on shelter/rescue dogs, so there is a need for poodle breeders, but there are TONS of poodle breeders out there already. If all you are breeding for is pets, and all you're breeding pet quality poodles, then I don't think you should be breeding. Let the best of the best handle it, or step up your game.
I agree with you mostly

A lot of breeders will say they are improving the breed when they really are not it’s just something to say to get puppy buyers attention.

I feel like these people who breed just pets ( in overall quality) are making lots of $$$$. Where is this $ going if they are not titling or improving their program? Standard poodles have big litters. If these breeders are asking $1500-2K for their pups X 7-9 puppies that is $10500-$18000 Of course give or take on how many puppies are produced. Most of the health testing is a onetime thing so some will argue it goes into health testing … which still does not equate to the money they are making off the puppies. X the amount above with how many litters they have a year ! IMO I would feel like I am giving these breeders a salary for just breeding a litter. The dogs they breed 90% of the time are not show quality …. Broad skulls, long in bodies, short Dalmatian ears, low tail sets etc… The only thing that they may have going for them is a sweet temperament (which I can find in a shelter and I have several times for a mere 100 bucks). On top of the prices they charge some of these breeders have a nerve to have a spay and neuter contract …. IMO if they can breed substandard dogs why do they feel they can tell someone else they can’t? It really makes no since to me lol. I also feel if I am going to give a breeder $1500 or even 2k this dog or puppy should be at least show able or of breeding quality.

Then there is another side where there are some pet breeders who have some very good dogs that could be titled, they ask the same price with no strings attached and their dogs don’t have titles. I would be willing to pay these breeders the same amount because A) you can clearly see they have dogs that have a chance of titling or B) you found a foundation dog to start with for your own program. Most puppy buyers just want a pet so this second scenario is rare IMO.

So all in all it depends on which scenario are we looking at!

I have high standards with breeding any animals and I expect a breeder to have similar expectations. If the breeder is putting in the work I am willing to pay them for their work!


Here is an example


I found this ad and they are asking well over 5k for these pups coming out of this dog ..... Its a "Champion" :wacko:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,320 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Here is an example


I found this ad and they are asking well over 5k for these pups coming out of this dog ..... Its a "Champion" :wacko:
Oh my GOSH!!! Look at that TAIL!!!! Look at those feet!!! Look at the rosettes!!! Champion? No way, no how.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,648 Posts
well now prices are a different topic. My aussie- the litter was same price for pet for for show dog (Show dog on co own only) 2 went to show homes. 1 to a pet home on co own for the breeder to show (pick of litter) and breeder kept one. the rest? most were showable- some would be very hard to finish (one has a dilute spot etc)

personally - yes i think a breeder should aim to produce dogs who could be shown- meaning they should have conformation that meets the standard- they should aim to improve that each and every generation. not all dogs will be- bu that should be the aim. conformation, temperment and if breeding for color- color.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,145 Posts
Oh my GOSH!!! Look at that TAIL!!!! Look at those feet!!! Look at the rosettes!!! Champion? No way, no how.
Yes a "champion" not AKC nor UKC :rolffleyes: The average puppy buyer usually has no clue about reputable registeries and kennel clubs.....:doh:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
Here is an example


I found this ad and they are asking well over 5k for these pups coming out of this dog ..... Its a "Champion" :wacko:
I've seen this dog before. It is an International Champion (I'm pretty sure the only requirement for an International Title in the US is that the dog doesn't die while being exhibited). I believe it is owned by a Doodle breeder.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top