[cuddleparty]

Snoops has an appointment at the vet tonight. His itching has not subsided (around his chin, neck, head) and it seems to be affecting his ears now. The poor guy seems miserable when he is scratching away. New hives have showed up and I'm praying the vet doesn't put him on antibiotics again. I also hope the vet doesn't charge me an arm and a leg for another visit - we are going back for the same problem as last time! Snoops will be going to the same clinic, but will visit with an alternate vet as his regular vet (Marilyn) is on surgery all day today. If we wanted to see her, we would have to wait until Thursday.

I want to help remedy Snoops' problem, but how do I know when enough is enough? How many vet visits and bills can we accumulate for the same issue?

Any advice on how I should handle this? What I should say to the vet or expect of him this visit? I really just want to get this problem solved and so does Snoops! :nurse:

 

[PonkiPoodles]

I think snoops has food allergies. These are exactly the same symptoms Ponki has when she eats anything that has grain in it.
It costs an insane amount of money to do an allergy test... and I can tell you right now... it won’t help you since most dogs (just like humans with allergies) are always allergic to more than one thing.
Give him ½ a Benadryl tablet. It might make him a bit sleepy, just like with children, but it will help.
And put him on only rice and chicken for 3 days. Back to the basics.

If it's food allergies they usually scratch themselves raw around the mouth, chin, eyes, ears... which will run you back to the vet a 1000 times. I now carefully watch Ponki... as soon as she starts scratching excessively she goes on to 1/2 a benadryl a day - I freak out - and we start all over again - since we've noticed that she's not only allergic to grains but she's also allergic to pollen(which can get really bad in this area in the summer time) and probably a list of other stuff.

I've been through this for the last two years now... and it's a pain to say the least. I've had Ponki on just about every brand of food known to mankind and I've finally switched her to raw food.... and she still has issues. (at least not with the food anymore but with pollen etc.) She still gets really watery eyes, and eye problems but she doesn't have the extreme itch she use to get when she ate dog food. My vet also recommended I keep her ears plucked, since this will decrease the debris and pollen that will irritate her skin on the inside of her ears.

 

[spoofan]

I'm with Ponki.
It looks like allergies and you need to find the cause and eliminate it.
Medication just treats the symptoms not the cause.

 

[cuddleparty]

Ponki - thank you so much for the advice.

I hate sounding like a broken record on here.. but I'll let you know that Snoops was on antibiotics because the scratched hives were getting infected. He is also taking 1/4 tablet Benadryl twice daily (1/2 makes him throw up). The Bendaryl seems to help... he is especially itchy in the morning when he wakes up, and at night before bed.

I suspected a food allergy also - he started to transition from Royal Canin to Halo food about the same time the itchies came up. I expressed this concern to the vet. She said that a food allergy is not likely because the symptoms express themselves gradually over time, or they are more acute right off the bat. I've had some good responses from PF members about this. I've also had responses not to give up on the Halo food and continue with it.

He also had a small bout with fleas about the same time - the vet seems to suspect it is FAD (flea allergy dermatitis). Honestly, I don't think Snoops's case with fleas was that bad. I saw a couple of bugs on him, but think I got to him before the fleas had a chance to get really bad. I spoke with the vet the other day and she said Snoops may still have fleas. I am almost certain that he does not... I'm confident that he doesn't.

Snoops has also developed persistent itching around his tail and butt. The vet said to bring him in to check his anal glands (I posted about this - DIY Anal Glands in "grooming" section)

I found some great info about food allergies on the Halo website, and I posted it on the forum somewhere. Everything they write about on that page seems to point to a food allergy with Snoops. I am really thinking of stopping the Halo and finding another food. I think the Royal Canin is great, but really like the idea of giving Snoops a more natural/holistic diet.

I just hate this guessing game, and it is at my pocket books expense and the expense of Snoops' well being.

 

[BFF]

I know it's frustrating and hard to see little Snoops obsessed with the itchys. I think going to the vet one more time is a good thing. You can determine whether it could be fleas and maybe get a better idea whether it is a food allergy. You can also feel better about his anal glands. That's a lot of things to check on, so you are getting good use out of your visit.

From what you have posted, I think he has a food allergy. I don't think he had fleas long enough to have created these persistent hives. Of course, I have no medical training. If it were me, I would switch back to the Royal Canin, see if the allergies go away. I also like Ponki's idea of feeding chicken and rice. My vet had suggested that before too.

If you switch to another brand before going back to Royal Canin, you may not resolve the allergy and not really be able to determine if there is an allergy from food (vs fleas or environment). Once changing his food, if the allergies don't go away, you can start eliminating other causes.

Poor Snoopers. Mommy will give you an extra huggins.

 

[Daddy123]

To test for fleas, comb him with a flea comb and put a piece of paper to catch whatever drops from his coat.

If you see tiny black dots on your paper, wet your finger and smear the dot. If the smear is red that's blood and it means he has fleas.

 

[PonkiPoodles]

I’ll take him to the vet just to make sure he doesn’t currently have an infection in his ears and to check his glands.

Then switch him to chicken and rice....I’ve tried Halo... Ponki was fine for about a week and then I returned the rest of the food to Petco. Many people recommended Halo to me... I’ve been there. Unfortunately it didn’t work for Ponki.

If you go back to just feeding chicken and rice... and he still has symptoms after 3 days you can rule out the food and go to the next subject.

If he had fleas he could be allergic to flea bites, the meds that the vet had put him on or the preventative you have him on. It could be laundry detergent... etc. Think of everything that goes into his mouth, or onto his skin. Hives are mostly caused by either ingesting or atopic treatments.

I wouldn’t rule out ANYTHING! Start from scratch.... give him a bath. This will probably give him a little relieve too. Don’t spay anything on his coat...not even conditioning. Have him checked for any existing infections and then monitor everything that goes on to his skin and into his mouth.
I usually start with one thing at a time if there is no reaction for 3 days I add something and so on and so forth. This is an irritating process, but unfortunately it beats going to the vet every second day... and it will make it easier for you to pin point the cause or causes.

 

[cuddleparty]

His ears were checked by the vet just the other week when we went for the initial visit. I also had the groomer check out his ears when he went in for maintenance the other week. All seemed ok there. He had a bath yesterday and that's when I noticed the new crop of hives.

The fleas were over a month ago now... and I agree with BFF - he didn't have fleas long enough. At that time, he did have a dose of Frontline and the capstar tablet but seemed to be fine with both.

He has been playing with his regular toys - his only new one is "Sophie the Giraffe" and "Ice Cream". He had the hives prior to both toys tho. He has never had a reaction to any of his toys in past.

After all of this super sleuthing, it leaves me to deduce that it is the Halo food. Or something environmental/seasonal.... I've been suffering from allergies myself.

As of today, I did not include a ration of Halo with his Royal Canin mixture. What is the recipe for Chicken & Rice? What are the benefits of feeding him this? Maybe I will try it.. Snoops will be a happy camper!

 

[Emily-By]

Does Snoops wear his collar around the house? and does it have any metal rings/tags ect on them?
nickel, plated metal(that are very common in the basic tags vets give your for rabies) can cause allergies in dogs and shows up in the areas where snoops is having issues.
I dont know much about halo, but common allergens are wheat, corn, brewers rice has been climbing the charts, chicken(poorly kept factory farmed), beef(poorly kept factory farmed-high hormons/antibioltics, tomatoes,

 

[PonkiPoodles]

His ears were checked by the vet just the other week when we went for the initial visit. I also had the groomer check out his ears when he went in for maintenance the other week. All seemed ok there. He had a bath yesterday and that's when I noticed the new crop of hives.

The fleas were over a month ago now... and I agree with BFF - he didn't have fleas long enough. At that time, he did have a dose of Frontline and the capstar tablet but seemed to be fine with both.

He has been playing with his regular toys - his only new one is "Sophie the Giraffe" and "Ice Cream". He had the hives prior to both toys tho. He has never had a reaction to any of his toys in past.

After all of this super sleuthing, it leaves me to deduce that it is the Halo food. Or something environmental/seasonal.... I've been suffering from allergies myself.

As of today, I did not include a ration of Halo with his Royal Canin mixture. What is the recipe for Chicken & Rice? What are the benefits of feeding him this? Maybe I will try it.. Snoops will be a happy camper!

Well basically it's just boiled chicken (white meat only - no bones or salt) and cooked white rice. It doesn't contain any preservatives, grain etc. that could cause a reaction... thus if it's the food you should notice a pretty much an improvement in the itchyness within a day.
Then you would feed it until the hives, ichyness is completely gone. This just helps you start over. Meaning rice and chicken is as basic as it gets... after he doesn't have any symptoms anymore (which if the symptoms presist even if he's fed chicken and rice only... it means it's not the food he's allergic too and you can start looking at other causes)

 

[cuddleparty]

Emily - Thanks for the FYI Snoops doesn't wear his collar indoors. Only for walks. Typically he takes it off once indoors. I checked the ingredients on the food and it does not list any that you mentioned. I will be sure to ask the vet again tonight!

Ponki - I think I will do this... the recipe sounds delicious! Snoops and I can share :eat: Do you think it's ok to substitute with brown rice?

 

[PonkiPoodles]

Emily - Thanks for the FYI Snoops doesn't wear his collar indoors. Only for walks. Typically he takes it off once indoors. I checked the ingredients on the food and it does not list any that you mentioned. I will be sure to ask the vet again tonight!

Ponki - I think I will do this... the recipe sounds delicious! Snoops and I can share :eat: Do you think it's ok to substitute with brown rice?

You could, but I think it might give him the runs since there is so much fiber in brown rice.

 

[cuddleparty]

Well we got back from the vet - same clinic, different doctor. I guess it was good to get a 2nd opinion.

So here are the differing opinions between doctors Marilyn vs Marcus:

FAD (Flea Allergy Dermatitis)

Marilyn: First suspected the hives to be due to FAD since Snoops had a bout of mild fleas last month. Spoke with her the other day and wanted me to treat Snoops with another dose of Frontline.

Marcus: Doesn't suspect it's fleas or ticks. If he did, he would recommend Revolution (vs Frontline)

Food Allergy - transitioning to Halo Chicken food

Marilyn: Not likely a food allergy - I would have noticed very severe symptoms straight away

Marcus: A possibility, but it takes about 8 weeks to notice if it is a food allergy or I would notice very severe symptoms straight away. Also, the entire body would be affected with itchiness and hives. This conflicts with what the Halo website says - that the itchiness would be noticed around head, neck, chin, chest and butt (and these are the areas where Snoops is most itchy)

So Marcus introduced a new thought - the collar (as another PF member mentioned earlier). Snoops wears a nylon collar, and tho he has worn it since day one with no problem, the nylon breaks down and can harbor bacteria. When he itches, the hives open up allowing bacteria from the collar to infect the sores. I mentioned that Snoops only wears his collar for walks, but Marcus said this is enough to affect him. I am switching him to a choke chain for 2 weeks to see if he improves. Just like there are certain plastics that can't be put in the microwave etc (it breaks down and becomes toxic) its the same with nylon. Interesting!

After we rule that out, or find it to be the culprit... we can try changing the food. Tho today, I have only fed Snoops the Royal Canin and no Halo.
Marcus also advised that the chicken/rice combo is good to get back to a clean slate. Unless the problem is that Snoops is allergic to chicken. He suggested I try another protein such as duck, kangaroo, venison, fish...

They also expressed his anal glands and said there was a normal amount of waste. His itchiness in that area should improve. There was no infection in that area. :reddy:

After a week, if Snoops develops new hives they will start him back up on a stronger antibiotic in order to wipe any bacterial skin infection away :sad:
I am to keep him on the Benadryl and move up to Chlor-Tripolon if I need something stronger. I hate having Snoops on so many meds.

So we are going for a follow up next week (free of charge).. woo hoo! :clap2:

 

[Harley_chik]

Here are my thoughts, though they are very pessimistic. Vets make money on Frontline/revolution/promeris/etc and most of their education in vet school and all of their continued education comes from either pharmaceutical or dog food companies. Considering most of those dog foods (Iams/Eukanuba/Purina/Pedigree/Science Diet) are full of grain and substandard ingredients, vets aren't going to lean toward food allergies. They also profit from a FAD diagnosis, since the common treatment is the meds they sell. According to the vet I use, one of my cats and both of my dogs have FAD even though they have very different symtoms. I say bull****! I too think it sounds like food allergies and the chicken and rice diet is probably your best bet. You also may want to look for a holistic vet.

 

[cuddleparty]

Here are my thoughts, though they are very pessimistic. Vets make money on Frontline/revolution/promeris/etc and most of their education in vet school and all of their continued education comes from either pharmaceutical or dog food companies. Considering most of those dog foods (Iams/Eukanuba/Purina/Pedigree/Science Diet) are full of grain and substandard ingredients, vets aren't going to lean toward food allergies. They also profit from a FAD diagnosis, since the common treatment is the meds they sell. According to the vet I use, one of my cats and both of my dogs have FAD even though they have very different symtoms. I say bull****! I too think it sounds like food allergies and the chicken and rice diet is probably your best bet. You also may want to look for a holistic vet.

Harley - I agree with you. I do realize that many doctors get a cut from the pharmaceutical giants and the corporations out there. It's a wonderful marriage of cross promotion that they have. I kind of rolled my eyes when Marcus mentioned Revolution. I did have a split second thought of him being a glorified pharma-rep making his commission. However, he did not push it on me. Nor did Marilyn. She said to continue with the Frontline that I already have (purchased from my vet in Texas). Marilyn did seem persistent about FAD, but did not push any additional meds on to me. Marcus did not rule out the food allergy, and suggested some other lines that I may want to try (I should have wrote them down!). I also agree with their idea of trying one thing at a time so that we know what the cause is (makes sense, right?)

While I do agree with your views on vets, my naivety wants to lead me to believe that vets are true animal lovers first and would not compromise their code of ethics and principles, and the health of animals, in order to turn a profit (via pharma/meds). Sure, I know there are some crappy doctors out there who are all about $$$... I often feel I'm getting ripped off.. which leads me back to the original posting of this thread. When is enough, enough and when does it become the vet taking the piss?

I think this is the point where I take all of the vets opinions, outside opinions and mommy gut instinct... roll it all up together... and see what I get.

I'm going to stop the Halo, change the collar and see how things go. Next vet visit is free so nothing more lost there.

But ya... I'm sure you are not far off with everything you said. Agreed! :top:

 

[Purple Poodle]

Just wanted to tell you my thoughts on this

Honestly, I don't think Snoops's case with fleas was that bad. I saw a couple of bugs on him, but think I got to him before the fleas had a chance to get really bad.

I have a Pit Bull who has FAD and all it takes in ONE flea bite to send her in a crazy itching fit and break out in hives. She gets a flea pill once a month and a medicated bath once a week to keep it under control. So it does not matter how long he had the fleas or how many as all it can take is one.

As for the collar I would look for a cotton one and skip the correction chain as it can be very dangerous on small/toy dogs.

http://www.collargirl.com/cotton_collars.htm
http://www.nextag.com/cotton-dog-collar/stores-html
http://www.alphadogtoys.com/natural_cotton_dog_cat_pet_collar_leash_harness.html

Anyway good luck and I hope he gets better...poor guy.

 

[Mandycasey'smom]

Here is another thought but I wouldn't change anything just yet as you will never know what fixed it.
Your food dishes. I can't remember now but I know some dogs get acne from I believe plastic dishes but it could be the metal ones as it is 330 am at moment and I couldn't sleep.

You could try feeding him off a paper plate for a few days perhaps some disposable bowls that you throw away each day as well just to see but like I said if you change everything at once then you won't know what fixed it

 

[passion4poodles]

These are all great suggestions! I will keep them in mind for the future JUST in case any of mine show signs like Snoops....but am I the only one who noticed cause I di dnot see anyone else with a reaction of WHAT? KANGAROO????? As a protine source???? WHAT???? LOL, sorry, but I have not heard of this before lol!

 

[PonkiPoodles]

These are all great suggestions! I will keep them in mind for the future JUST in case any of mine show signs like Snoops....but am I the only one who noticed cause I di dnot see anyone else with a reaction of WHAT? KANGAROO????? As a protine source???? WHAT???? LOL, sorry, but I have not heard of this before lol!

Yup... and it doesn't stop there! You get some interesting stuff especially if you are feeding raw food.

 

[passion4poodles]

wow, so where would you get something like that loL!