Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So are they trained like a regular service dog? It used to be the airlines didn’t allow emotional support dogs unless they were specially trained and were certified as a service animal.

Can anyone get their dog certified? I have found websites that all you have to do is pay a fee and you will be sent service animal badges to see on a vest, I.D. Cards and more. And should those be allowed on a private plane?

Here is an article from CNN today:


Man says emotional support dog mauled him on Delta flight


The man says Delta violated its own animal policy and that the "animal was so large it encroached into the aisle seat and window seat"

Read in CBS News: https://apple.news/Aruk03-1iRuudDHtRYtkxRg


Shared from Apple News


Sent from my iPhone


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
24,103 Posts
There are many fakers who want to have their dogs with them just because they don't want to leave them home and claim them as ESA or SD, but who have done none of the proper training and maybe no training at all. There is no requirement under the ADA for a formal certification from an organization. Many people, including several PF members have or are in the process of self training their SD. SD are granted access rights under the ADA and can go places ESA cannot. The other thing is that of course there are scammers who will sell harnesses, collars, leashes and provide cards identifying the animal as an ESA (or SD) for a fee (often hefty) that give undeserved access to untrained animals. The fakers make it hard for the people who really need their SD, especially when such dogs are poorly controlled or worse aggressive and doing other such inappropriate behaviors. The fakers should not be allowed any access as a result.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,592 Posts
It’s a very interesting subject. We’ve had many discussions about it too. You should find a few threads if you do a search.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,078 Posts
WE too have discussed it. There are so many people today that claim they need emotional support. I mean really we all need emotional support at times. ES dogs should be for those who really need it and should be required to be trained. When people abuse things in time they ruin it for those who really need it. I saw someone in a grocery store in a electric cart (the stores) with a shih tau on his lap. While the dog was fairly well behaved it was panting and ill groomed, dirty looking. Another has a okie in the baby seat of the cart and whenever they saw a store manager they covered it with a blanket. Really this is just another part of todays "ME" society.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I consider Zeke as my emotional support dog and my service dog. He does have job for me, but not one that would justify me taking him everywhere I go. I even found a place online that would certify him. But I realized I’d never take him in to stores or restaurants or on a plane, or other similar places. Also he wasn’t trained for CGC. So I know the “fakers” can ruin it for those who really need the privileges and deserve them.

When something like this takes place, it’s going to cause an effect for those who have actual SDs. I’m just sorry to see that happen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,629 Posts
My Asta does several tasks for me with my bipolar disorder. I had always thought of him as just ESA - but when I talked about training him for these specific tasks, everyone on the forum said he really was a Psychiatric Service dog. We are still training tasks and being good and helpful when we are out and about. Right now I am working on generalizing his "Help Me" command so I can use it in other settings beside the home. We are also working on training with a dumbbell in hopes that I can train him to fetch a water bottle for me when I am a little confused and need to take medication.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,015 Posts
I have been making a lot of quick trips to DFW and have noticed more “alleged” service dogs. Thank goodness no pigs or peacocks, but I confess to being VERY skeptical of the dogs I have seen. They all seem to fail focused attention on their “service” partners. Not even check-ins. None of them have been barking, lunging maniacs nor on my flights. Just pleasant looking little dogs that are people watching, like a companion dog would do and not on sit/down stays. They could be entirely credentialed, none were wearing vests. It’s the airline’s call if they are legit and will not bite your face off from the adjacent seat, or displace a real service animal because of FAA regulations on the number of animals in the cabin.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,628 Posts
Once more...

Air Carriers Access Act (ACAA) and the Fair Housing Act (FHA) are the two laws that allow people to claim their pets help them feel better, therefore their pets should be allowed to live in no pet buildings, and fly on airplanes. Emotional support animals are not required to have any training whatsoever. Emotional support animals are pets. They are not SD's.

The Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) states, "Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities."

Note the word trained. Not certified. Trained. Service dogs are not pets. They are highly trained working dogs that have received individual training in both public behavior and disability assistance. That disability assistance be guiding someone who cannot see, alerting someone who has a hearing disability to sounds in their environment. It could be assisting someone who has a seizure disorder, or alert to sudden changes in any medical condition. It could be picking up dropped items. Psychiatric service animals are not emotional support dogs, either. They are true service dogs individually trained to assist with psychiatric emergency (like dear Asta, who rocks!), or any other kind of psychiatric problems. The difference between an ESA and a PSY-SD is the specific individual training. (And why dear Asta ROCKS!)

Dogs who provide emotional comfort, who don't have an individually trained task to perform to assist a person with a disability are not service dogs. "Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA." https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Anyone on the internet offering certification of a service dog for a fee is involved in a scam. There is no certification process in the USA for service dogs. Who would certify the certifier? By what standards would the certification be defined? How would someone in a rural part of Alaska get certified? Certification would create as many problems as it would solve.

What matters is the training. Noelle's training has been documented in detail on PF. If I was ever sued, I would send the judge to my training thread as proof that Noelle has received individual training. The real question is simple. Can I state, under penalty of perjury in a court of law, that my dog has received individual training to assist me with my diabetes? Yes. That is what makes Noelle a SD, not a certification paper. Or a vest, or a card from a company on the internet. Noelle is medical equipment and tax deductible.

If petting your dog makes you feel better when you are upset, this is not a task. Please do not use the term Service Dog unless your dog is trained to assist with a disability. If your dog is in the process of training, you have an SDiT, a Service Dog In Training. If your dog helps you when you are upset, you may have an ESA, but you do not have an SD.

ESA's are pets. They have the identical training to any random dog you meet on the street. Barking hysterically at anything that moves is just fine for an ESA. Aggression toward strangers and children is also just fine for an ESA. ESA's are pets. Why the Air Carriers Access Act (ACAA) allows people to bring untrained pets on their planes, and put people's lives at risk, is beyond me. This is a law that needs updating.

ESA's are not allowed to go into restaurants. They are not allowed to go into any hotel. They are not allowed in a taxi, a bus, a museum, or any other place of public enjoyment. Service dogs have zero rights to enter these places, either. Dogs do not have civil rights. The disabled human being on the other end of the leash has the civil right to go into any restaurant, hotel, taxi, bus, museum, or any other place of public enjoyment with their SD. Refusal is a federal civil rights violation and a state violation as well.

Faking a service dog is fraud, pure and simple. It puts Noelle's life at risk. ESA's can stay in the homes with their families and give love and kisses. They don't belong in Starbucks, and they don't belong on airplanes. I hope the Air Carriers Access Act (ACAA) gets updated soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,078 Posts
Very well said Click. I think some of the laws and interpretations have been confused and definitely need updating. As time change we sometimes need to make adjustments to laws or "human nature" tend to find a way around them. I think it would be good to spell thing out more clearly in some of our present laws.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
24,103 Posts
Click thank you for that clearly articulated post. I hope many people find it and gain understanding about the differences between SD and ESA. From my perspective as a scientist and professor of biology I know there is great importance in getting clear vocabulary to sort subtle differences in meaning. You have done that with that post.


I really find it very offensive when people with poorly mannered out of control dogs claim them as something they are not. It makes it hard for people like you, me, Asta's Mom, Skylar, Kontiki and others who are working hard to train real SD to have the access we are entitled to by law.


Interestingly we met a man at the speedway over the last weekend who had a really lovely and well trained ESA with him (a lab). The dog actually was off leash and stayed right with the man while he walked through an exhibit of vintage race cars. I talked with him a bit since I was interested in understanding how the dog had been trained not to startle at the sounds of loud engines starting and revving. He told me the dog had been trained for him by an organization and already had that behavior in place when he got the dog. I didn't ask of course but I think the dog was providing support related to PTSD as the man looked the right age to have been in Afghanistan or Irag in the early to mid 2000s. Honestly this dog was so well trained for public access that if he does any specific trained behaviors to assist his partner he really is an SD not an ESA. I wish I had been able to get more insight about training for the level of noise involved in motor sports since I would like to be able to bring Javelin next year. It was very hot in Indianapolis this year and Javelin could have been very helpful to me at a couple of different times where I found myself not feeling too well and being alone since BF had wandered off.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Text and photo from DH this last December:

I can't get over how many dogs are on our flight!

2 smallish pits, a chaweenie, several others.....all you need is a letter saying they're"emotional support" dogs, and they can sit on your lap like a 2 year old

--------------
I can understand needing support whether emotional or physical. I am so impressed by the training threads I read thru, this photo just seems to mock all that work. If I'm misjudging that person and their dog, I'm sorry. I don't think I am tho, in this case.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,628 Posts
ESA's require zero training. That's what makes them so unpredictable and potentially dangerous. I know from handling dogs that my stress goes down the leash and into the dog. So, we have a human who is afraid to fly. They are anxious and nervous. That feeling goes down the leash into the dog. A psychiatric service dog has been trained to respond with calming behaviors to their handler's distress. An ESA has no training. I think the idea of emotional comfort animals on flights was a bad one from the start.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,078 Posts
Click I think you are wise. Personally I think a emotional support pet is for home, ou need one for travel bring a stuffed animal or a real service dog. I mean really don't most dogs or cats or your favorite pet give you emotional support? I know mine do but do I need this to succeed in everyday activitvities, I don't think so. If I did I would need more than support, I'd need a service...To many subtle words in laws today and people just jump on the opportunity to take advantage.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I, too, could have my dr write a letter stating that Zeke is May ESA, but what good would it do? If I were to take him on my flight next year, although he is harmless at home, I think he would probable respond poorly to the hustle and bustle of the airport, and the sound of the engines on the plane. I’d be worried he’d get air sick as he used to get sick in a car a LOT, and even now is stressed in one.

My stress level would be so high, and so would his, neither one of us could offer much of any type of support to the other. He just hasn’t been trained in public. What if he construed the flight attendant reaching across us to give out a drink as threatening, and bites him or Her?

Don’t people think about these things? I guess many of them don’t, and think their dog is incapable of hurting anyone because they are so sweet at home. And who says they are even so sweet at home?

I’m glad the guy who owns the dog in the article is being sued. And I hope he loses. Maybe that will make people think before taking an untrained dog into those types of situations.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,227 Posts
you do know that many folks feel that it doesn't matter how much training a PSD has it is still nothing more then an ESA. Since there was and is a lot of confusion about the differences between the two they simply painted them both with one brush... and well human nature took over...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,227 Posts
nope not even required to be housebroken. They can be the meanest, nastiest, snappiest little **** that poops and pees everywhere but if they "make you feel good" and you have a doctors letter you are good to go. NOW that doesn't mean that the place can't toss you out for your dogs behavior or make can't make you pay damages but legally they are not required to have any training of any type.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,628 Posts
ESA's and Psy-SD's have nothing in common. An actually trained psychiatric service dog is as lifesaving as my diabetes alert dog. Emotional support isn't a task. These are tasks.
https://www.iaadp.org/psd_tasks.html
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top