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Discussion Starter #1
I found the breeder online. They say their the poodles they breed are miniatures. But their dogs are usually 10-13 inches high and weigh 9-12 lbs. Is that normal?

Appreciate any insight!
 

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To clarify, I am bit concerned that their minis are too small. Does the size of parents affect the puppies when they are full grown?
 

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Miniatures are to be 10 to 15 inches, so that’s perfectly fine. In fact it’s perfect. What are you concerned about ?

If you want a bigger dog, get a standard. They start at 15 inches.
 

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Miniatures are to be 10 to 15 inches, so that’s perfectly fine. In fact it’s perfect. What are you concerned about ?

If you want a bigger dog, get a standard. They start at 15 inches.
Thanks very much for your reply, Dechi. I'm a little concerned because it seems to me that most full-grown mini-poodles posted on the forum are usually well over 13 inches and/or weigh over 13 pounds.

The dogs of the breeder I mentioned, https://primopuppies.com/poodle-puppies, some of the sires/dams weigh less than 10 lbs (one is like 8 and one is like 9). Would that be normal, too? (I'm sorry if the answer is obvious - I'm very new to the world of mini poo)
 

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Those dogs are a bit on the smaller side of the spectrum; however, as Dechi said, this is fine. What is more concerning when looking at a particular dog, however, is the overall structure of the dog. Take a look at many of the dogs that this breeder has. They have what is commonly called an “ewe neck”, and several of the dogs, while they have supposedly been tested in OFA, have very short legs, which could lead to knee issues in the future. I think someone on here has the link and the know-how to access a particular breeder’s test results on the OFA site.
 

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Those dogs are a bit on the smaller side of the spectrum; however, as Dechi said, this is fine. What is more concerning when looking at a particular dog, however, is the overall structure of the dog. Take a look at many of the dogs that this breeder has. They have what is commonly called an “ewe neck”, and several of the dogs, while they have supposedly been tested in OFA, have very short legs, which could lead to knee issues in the future. I think someone on here has the link and the know-how to access a particular breeder’s test results on the OFA site.
Thank you!
 

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I don’t like the conformation of these dogs either. You can do so much better. Rose ‘N Poos has a thread somewhere with the names of reputable breeders.
 

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I agree the conformation of the dogs is not great. In particular I think Cassie has a very poor conformation and many of their dogs have very short tails, indicating that they did not come from good breeders themselves. Proper poodle tail length is much longer. I think it's good their dogs are health tested, but I would be put off by other factors.
 

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Hi and Welcome to PF!

I hope we can help you find a wonderful breeder who will be able to offer you a wonderfully well bred poodle to join your family!

The breed standard for poodle varieties is determined by height rather than weight, tho it's hard to get height measured on wiggly little puppies :).

Toys are up to 10" , miniatures are 10"-15" and standards are over 15". In reality, conscientious breeders will be trying to breed each generation to the normal breed standard, so toys are ideally towards the higher end of their range, mini's have their full 5" range, and standards are usually 20" and over.
Weight figures in only so far as health is concerned. Poodles carry their weight very differently than most breeds.

I haven't looked at the site yet, but the shorter legs having been bred into some poodles, mini's or toys particularly, is actually a genetic mutation. There are 2 variations of the mutation, one which is simply shorter legs (think dachshunds, corgis) with just the usual cautions so they don't injure themselves, and one which has a tie to IVDD, which is a debilitating and even deadly condition. I'd recommend avoiding the short legged poodles unless you learn about the genetic testing for some of these known conditions. There are studies that have identified diseases and conditions that run thru not just purebred dogs but mixed breed dogs too. Information is your friend there.

I have looked now.Their website mentions OFA testing on many of their dogs, with patella's and hips frequently noted and yet their Health Guarantee says this
"Guarantee does not cover what is to be considered normal of the breed purchased, such as but not limited to; Cherry eye, entropion, loose knees/hips, skin allergies, hip dysplasia, elongated soft palates, stenotic nares (collapsed nostrils)."

That just seems curious to me. I looked at the OFA site to see if Primo came up as a kennel name and I got no results with that. You'll need the AKC registered name or the AKC registry number to find any results if they've published them.

Primo says this about themselves on the AKC Marketplace site:

"About the Breeder
BREEDING SINCE 2010
We are a small family operated facility. We strive to raise happy, healthy puppies. We are USDA and State licensed as well as being a Missouri Blue Ribbon Kennel! I do recommended health testing on my adults and also participate in the AKC Bred with HEART program. I love my dogs and I think it shows in our quality puppies."

Being USDA and State licensed sounds like a good thing, but all it means is that they have above a certain number of adult or breeding dogs at their facility and over a certain number of litters a year so they are required to be licensed.

The Bred with Heart Requirements:
The following must be met in order to be accepted into the program:

  • Have registered at least one AKC litter within the past 5 years
  • Be in good standing with the AKC
  • Certify that applicable health screens are performed on breeding stock as recommended by the respective AKC Breed Parent Club and be prepared to supply proof of such compliance upon request
  • Must agree to comply with the AKC Care and Conditions Policy, including inspection(s) by the American Kennel Club or its duly authorized representative
  • Must agree to comply with all applicable federal, state, and local laws and regulations regarding the ownership and maintenance of dogs
  • Must agree to complete AKC-approved and/or AKC-provided continuing breeder education courses annually
  • Must complete the online application process and pay an annual fee of $25 per breed
This breeder seems a real mixed bag to me. I'd personally want to learn more from them before proceeding.

I'll add the Breeder List link which has the link to OFA as well as a lot of additional resources.


I see that Primo is in Missouri. I'm in the Kansas City Metro area on the Kansas side and I can tell that I've found only a handful of breeders in the area that I'd happily recommend to anyone. There must be more, but I've not found them yet. If you don't know, the Midwest, Missouri and Kansas particularly, are states with some of the highest numbers of puppy mills in the US. Because of that and to give you a starting point for choosing a breeder (and you may need to go well out of your area) that will stand behind you and their pup for a lifetime, I'm adding my personal checklist. .


These are my personal criteria. They don't have to be yours but understanding why these are important will help you find quality, conscientious breeders.

My Personal Breeder Requirements

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed. They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better. They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own. They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract. They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them. They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them. They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

! Anything not found on the website should be provided by breeder before buying

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.
 

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Hi and Welcome to PF!

I hope we can help you find a wonderful breeder who will be able to offer you a wonderfully well bred poodle to join your family!

The breed standard for poodle varieties is determined by height rather than weight, tho it's hard to get height measured on wiggly little puppies :).

Toys are up to 10" , miniatures are 10"-15" and standards are over 15". In reality, conscientious breeders will be trying to breed each generation to the normal breed standard, so toys are ideally towards the higher end of their range, mini's have their full 5" range, and standards are usually 20" and over.
Weight figures in only so far as health is concerned. Poodles carry their weight very differently than most breeds.

I haven't looked at the site yet, but the shorter legs having been bred into some poodles, mini's or toys particularly, is actually a genetic mutation. There are 2 variations of the mutation, one which is simply shorter legs (think dachshunds, corgis) with just the usual cautions so they don't injure themselves, and one which has a tie to IVDD, which is a debilitating and even deadly condition. I'd recommend avoiding the short legged poodles unless you learn about the genetic testing for some of these known conditions. There are studies that have identified diseases and conditions that run thru not just purebred dogs but mixed breed dogs too. Information is your friend there.

I have looked now.Their website mentions OFA testing on many of their dogs, with patella's and hips frequently noted and yet their Health Guarantee says this
"Guarantee does not cover what is to be considered normal of the breed purchased, such as but not limited to; Cherry eye, entropion, loose knees/hips, skin allergies, hip dysplasia, elongated soft palates, stenotic nares (collapsed nostrils)."

That just seems curious to me. I looked at the OFA site to see if Primo came up as a kennel name and I got no results with that. You'll need the AKC registered name or the AKC registry number to find any results if they've published them.

I'll add the Breeder List link which has the link to OFA as well as a lot of additional resources.


I see that Primo is in Missouri. I'm in the Kansas City Metro area on the Kansas side and I can tell that I've found only a handful of breeders in the area that I'd happily recommend to anyone. There must be more, but I've not found them yet. If you don't know, the Midwest, Missouri and Kansas particularly, are states with some of the highest numbers of puppy mills in the US. Because of that and to give you a starting point for choosing a breeder (and you may need to go well out of your area) that will stand behind you and their pup for a lifetime, I'm adding my personal checklist. .


These are my personal criteria. They don't have to be yours but understanding why these are important will help you find quality, conscientious breeders.

My Personal Breeder Requirements

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed. They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better. They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own. They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract. They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them. They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them. They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

! Anything not found on the website should be provided by breeder before buying

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.
This is very helpful! Thank you so much!
 

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You're welcome. I added a bit more in the middlish just as you posted. I can't ever seem to let enough alone :).

If you go thru the Breeder List, do look thru the Multi State listings too. I'm not deliberately duplicating listings. Use the PCA link to find the breeder referral people for your area, too.

If you're in the Midwest and looking for a well bred miniature, be prepared to travel for him or her. Shipping is possible and usually safe, but it's really important to see yourself where the pup comes from, see their dam (and sire if he's on site), and meet the breeder. To come back to your other question, the parents might be an indicator of adult size but it's far from a guarantee. The best way to gauge that is to have the pedigree history with physical descriptions several generations back.
 

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You're welcome. I added a bit more in the middlish just as you posted. I can't ever seem to let enough alone :).

If you go thru the Breeder List, do look thru the Multi State listings too. I'm not deliberately duplicating listings. Use the PCA link to find the breeder referral people for your area, too.

If you're in the Midwest and looking for a well bred miniature, be prepared to travel for him or her. Shipping is possible and usually safe, but it's really important to see yourself where the pup comes from, see their dam (and sire if he's on site), and meet the breeder. To come back to your other question, the parents might be an indicator of adult size but it's far from a guarantee. The best way to gauge that is to have the pedigree history with physical descriptions several generations back.
Very much appreciated, Rose n Poos! Thanks for parsing the statements on their website. I'll do more research and talk to more breeders. I'm actually on the west coast : )

Re your tips on "health guarantee," Clarion Poodles seems to be a reputable breeder as suggested on this forum but their health guarantee, compared to others, greatly favors the buyer rather than the breeder. Is Clarion an outlier?
 

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When a contract like Clarion's is even handed or even favors the buyer, then you are likely dealing with a conscientious breeder. They don't necessarily feel they have to build in clauses to cover every contingency, since they've already done their best by selecting their breeding dogs carefully, testing for health issues, testing for diversity and being familiar with the same of the dogs they breed to, and prove their dogs are sound and to the breed standard by competing. They invest a lot in their dogs, for the breed, and for their reputation.

As always, no guarantees, but I think confidence in their dogs often shows in the contract. I would call their contract an example of a confident breeder.
 

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Thanks very much for your reply, Dechi. I'm a little concerned because it seems to me that most full-grown mini-poodles posted on the forum are usually well over 13 inches and/or weigh over 13 pounds.

The dogs of the breeder I mentioned, https://primopuppies.com/poodle-puppies, some of the sires/dams weigh less than 10 lbs (one is like 8 and one is like 9). Would that be normal, too? (I'm sorry if the answer is obvious - I'm very new to the world of mini poo)
I took a look at the web site. Most of the dogs shown appear to be oversize toys, not bred from quality miniature poodle stock.

It's interesting that they say the dogs are OFA certified but do not provide the dogs' registered names so that one can check the OFA site to see the testing results.

None of the poodles pictured were well groomed. That, too, is usually a red flag. While they certainly do have some good things to say about health and feeding, I get the overall impression that these folks are in the "dog business" to make money, not to breed quality pets. Missouri is, by the way, known to have a large number of puppy mills. Just sayin'.
 

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Very much appreciated, Rose n Poos! Thanks for parsing the statements on their website. I'll do more research and talk to more breeders. I'm actually on the west coast : )

Re your tips on "health guarantee," Clarion Poodles seems to be a reputable breeder as suggested on this forum but their health guarantee, compared to others, greatly favors the buyer rather than the breeder. Is Clarion an outlier?
Clarion has a very long history of breeding top quality poodles. I would buy from them in a heartbeat.
 

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I took a look at the web site. Most of the dogs shown appear to be oversize toys, not bred from quality miniature poodle stock.

It's interesting that they say the dogs are OFA certified but do not provide the dogs' registered names so that one can check the OFA site to see the testing results.

None of the poodles pictured were well groomed. That, too, is usually a red flag. While they certainly do have some good things to say about health and feeding, I get the overall impression that these folks are in the "dog business" to make money, not to breed quality pets. Missouri is, by the way, known to have a large number of puppy mills. Just sayin'.
Thanks, Johanna! I agree that the fact that none of them were well-groomed raises a red flag.

May I ask how you tell an oversize toy from a small mini? Do they actually look different? Some websites say the difference between toys and minis is simply the size and I'm confused.
 

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Clarion has a very long history of breeding top quality poodles. I would buy from them in a heartbeat.
Sounds great! I have actually got in touch with Clarion, but their waitlist is super long. I recall that you got your puppy from Donnchada. I am in touch with Betty Brown, too, who told me she has two upcoming litters. How was your experience with Donnchada? Should I wait on Clarion or is Donnchada equally great? Thanks!
 

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May I ask how you tell an oversize toy from a small mini? Do they actually look different? Some websites say the difference between toys and minis is simply the size and I'm confused.
Til Johanna drops back by, I'll poke my head in to say that all websites should say "the difference between toys and minis is simply the size".

Here's from the illustrated AKC Poodle Breed Standard:

"Official AKC Standard For the Poodle

The Standard for the Poodle (Toy variety) is the same as for the Standard and the Miniature varieties except as regards heights.

General Appearance Carriage and Condition That of a very active, intelligent and elegant-appearing dog, squarely built, well proportioned, moving soundly and carrying himself proudly. Properly clipped in the traditional fashion and carefully groomed, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself.
6

Size, Proportion, Substance
Size: The StandardPoodle is over 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle.
The Miniature Poodle is 15 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders, with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches. Any Poodle which is over 15 inches or is 10 inches or less at the highest point ofthe shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as aMiniature Poodle.
The Toy Poodle is 10 inches or under at the highest point ofthe shoulders. Any Poodle which is more than 10 inches at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Toy Poodle.

As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding factor when all other points are equal."

source: http://www.cincinnatipoodleclub.org/uploads/PoodleBreedDocument.pdf

My boys are an intervariety breeding between an oversize toy and small mini. They both exceed the toy standard so we call them mini's.

Why the oversize can happen is, of course, genetics. There have been times in the past 100 and some years when intervariety breedings happened between toys and mini's, and mini's and standards. This was done for specific purposes, to improve features, and was ended when the desired features were set in the new generations. Sometimes, oversize still crops up.
 

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Til Johanna drops back by, I'll poke my head in to say that all websites should say "the difference between toys and minis is simply the size".

Here's from the illustrated AKC Poodle Breed Standard:

"Official AKC Standard For the Poodle

The Standard for the Poodle (Toy variety) is the same as for the Standard and the Miniature varieties except as regards heights.

General Appearance Carriage and Condition That of a very active, intelligent and elegant-appearing dog, squarely built, well proportioned, moving soundly and carrying himself proudly. Properly clipped in the traditional fashion and carefully groomed, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself.
6

Size, Proportion, Substance
Size: The StandardPoodle is over 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle.
The Miniature Poodle is 15 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders, with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches. Any Poodle which is over 15 inches or is 10 inches or less at the highest point ofthe shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as aMiniature Poodle.
The Toy Poodle is 10 inches or under at the highest point ofthe shoulders. Any Poodle which is more than 10 inches at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Toy Poodle.

As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding factor when all other points are equal."

source: http://www.cincinnatipoodleclub.org/uploads/PoodleBreedDocument.pdf

My boys are an intervariety breeding between an oversize toy and small mini. They both exceed the toy standard so we call them mini's.

Why the oversize can happen is, of course, genetics. There have been times in the past 100 and some years when intervariety breedings happened between toys and mini's, and mini's and standards. This was done for specific purposes, to improve features, and was ended when the desired features were set in the new generations. Sometimes, oversize still crops up.
Thank you!
 

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Interestingly, when I helped my friend research Shiba Inu breeders, I came across this shiba breeder whose Health-guarantee uses exactly the same language verbatim as the health guarantee of PrimoPuppies. They are both based in Missouri lol
 
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