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partial2poodles
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I live in PA, I have a litter of 5, the daddy looks just like the avatar for desertreef. I would like the opportunity to tell about these puppies, if I may. After you read it, call me irrisponsible or whatever you like. The fact is...now that they are born, they need loving homes.

I was very new to the poodle world when I searched for my 1st standard. I asked all the questions about genetic tests and show parents with CH in front of their names. I contacted a very well known breeder who recommended another lady who they occasionally went to shows together etc. She said she had 2 litters at the same time and they needed to go. So I interview this OTHER breeder. She told me everything I wanted to hear. I believed her. I did not get copies of genetic tests, I did not see the Xray reports....I believed her when she said she hadd all that stuff in a drawer at her other house. The pup was 10 weeks old and $1,000 firm with a clause that said if I ever breed her, she got pick of the litter and it HAD to have 5 genetic tests done.

So we paid cash and drove home with our new black Dassin poodle girl and grew her up into a healthy adult. She was also my grooming model dog. Poor girl went thru some BAD haircuts while I learned on her. I did not get her spayed but I also was noticing her front lower canine tooth was hitting the roof of her mouth. The breeder assured me it would eventually be fine, don't worry!
Move forward 4 years. She got pregnant by accident to my parti poodle...and had 11 healthy babies. Those were not registered AND I did tell the breeder and thats when she got really rude. I DO understand but her reasons were simply that she was a member of the BIG TIME local poodle club and she would have no parts of parti poodles, even though she admitted they were gorgeous. So now we have broken ties. I see her at dog events and I ignore her and she ignores me. FINE. I start hearing rumors about her getting out of dog breeding because people are complaining right and left about health or contracts and not getting registration papers....etc.

She is still the most wonderful pet. She is still very very black but is getting a few round flat cysts. I had 3 removed last year. Anyway, now she is 9 and I was getting her spayed and getting 3 more cysts removed that popped up. As I am shaving her ruck-up and belly, I notice how chubby her tummy is. She has never been over 42 lbs in her life and she looks big there. So I run to the vet that same evening and YES, the poor dear is pregnant...to my silver male, the only one intact and the one who has loved her since I bought him but she always growled so viciously at him, I always thought, "No way is he ever getting near her!" So to my shock....(actually I am still in shock) she had 5 healthy babies. I had no doubt after seeing x-rays AND sonogram, that she would deliver just fine. She is on raw food, cooked meats, holistic dog food and raw bones. Its just those cysts and her crooked tooth that have bothered me. After reading some peoples stories on here about their breeders and the types of dogs they bought, I don't feel GOOD, but I don't feel HORRIBLE either.

So NOW she has to get spayed right away after the puppies leave. My goal is to find loving responsible homes for them. I need to find them homes with POODLE PEOPLE.....I want people who totally understand the breed and will accept a purebred puppy that may turn out fine OR might have a few flaws. The fact that the mother is 9, the father is 8 and they are as happy and healthy as 1 year olds ought to account for something.

I would like to ask $300. I would like your opinions PLEASE. I know I was wrong...it should have never happened and I did take precautions with 5 and 6 foot gates and separate floors in the house and everything but its OBVIOUS that I went to work one day and SOMETHING happened. I didn't see anything so I'm not positive. But I am NOT going to register them because the male's bloodlines are so wonderful, I don't want anything to contaminate them as far as AKC registration. I also found a vet that WILL neuter at 12 weeks....that could be an option although I have always been against doing that. I hate to start now, but I'm weighing it out.

Will the people on here who are responsible breeders please reply. Put yourself in my shoes and give me advice that you would actually do yourself. I would like to know what you think about asking a dollar amount at all! Would you say free to a good home as if they were shep/lab/husky mixes?
 

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What do you want us to say? You are having a second accidental litter out of a 9 yr old bitch who should have been spayed years ago. You have intact males in your home that should have already been neutered.

I think you should contact Poodle rescue in your area and enlist their help in placing these puppies.
 

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I am not a breeder. I have 2 spoos and they are my companions. I would certainly ask more than $300.00 dollars. You don't want to make every Tom, **** or Harry interested. :wacko:
Spoos are not cheap to raise. They need grooming on top of your regularly expenses in owning a pet. I would focus on the best homes possible. :)
Oh yeah, very nice pics. If the pups look anything like mom or dad, they will be nice. Please posts pics so we can watch those little ones grow!
 

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That is a tough pill to swallow:eek:hwell:

But I would say ask that price and do what is needed to prepare them for new homes - People will likely pay that for a poodle and no questions asked for that price, that's just the way it is. I am not sure what else you can do, whats done is done. YES - being honest you should have done the spay and neuter.....I am a BIG advocate for that and TRY not to express my opinion on people toooo much - I hope you can find them good homes. If the Vet checks the litter out fine, they may not have to deal with major health issues..Good luck.
 

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The idea that more expensive dogs are taken care of is silly and IMO often just an excuse for greedy people to make money off their puppies. My $50 shelter dog isn't treated any better than the dog I paid $500 to a breeder for. Nor will the Spoo I intend on spending much more on be treated better than either of two I have now. Charge enought to cover your cost (w/ no stud fee, titles or health testing that isn't much).

I tend to agree w/ Cbrand somewhat too. You aren't new to breeding or Poodle ownership. I've never owned a Spoo and am not a breeder, but using baby gates to separate breeding dogs seems inadequate to me. I guess you know that now. I know many stud dog owners go so far as to board their stud when they have a female in heat. I also can't help but wonder why she wasn't spayed sooner or why you didn't spay despite the pregnancy. Were you not worried about Pyometra in the five years since her last litter?

As you said, what's done is done and I hope you find great homes for the puppies.
 

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I do want to add something here. There were a few times when I was going to get her spayed. She used to be plagued by ear problems and she also was having problems and reactions to vaccinations for several years in a row. So I never wanted to spay her unless she was 100% healthy. Other times it may have been a matter of bad timing with money. The gate we have across the kitchen is 5 foot high solid wood with solid hinges and latch. Its not a weeny gate for a mini doxie. Believe me, my dogs have to have a strong gate cause when they see the UPS man or something, they could jump right over anything under 5 foot. I always wear pants on my girls, the boys often spend the entire 3 weeks at my shop rather than being around the girls. I take a lot of precautions....this WAS really unexpected. I KNOW everything the same as you all do. I KNOW I wanted no more puppies from her. The male never was inteded to be neuterred. We always planned to have a couple litters from him. He was not the problem....His health clearances are excellent as well as generations back. I have done all my homework. Its the bitch that could be carrying unwanted things that MAY or MAY NOT show up. I'm as sorry as anyone. I am not looking to benefit monetarily but I do want good homes. I have a lot of competitive groomer friends across the country....their coats will make them good for scissoring and their smallish stature makes them nice in the ring because you only get 2 hours to groom a standard.
 

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Does that mean it's possible that many of the things you experienced with this bitch will be passed onto the puppies? Will you be up front and honest with potential owners so that they know what they might face and get to choose instead of be faced with it later?
 

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Wow yet again another accidental breeding.

People may not agree with a breeder that have kennels or runs, but if you have both male and females intact, it's obviously important.

I would rather a breeder keep a dog locked up when need be than to have this happen. I would not want a dog to live in a kennel as its lifestyle but they are clearly one sure way to keep this from happening. I think it seems naive to think they wont "do it" because your keeping close eye on them. They would not have any remote chance to get to each other if it were under my control. (just a bit of a control freak that way)

I have a friend who purchased a SP from a so called accidental breeding (off of craigslist) for 300.00. He did have papers, for whatever they were worth. The "breeder" also sold them at 6 weeks. I did mention to the woman that it was illegal to sell a puppy in CA under 8 weeks. Her reply was that she thought they were ready...maybe partly because they were living in the tiny living room of a small condo with a tiny patio.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I am an honest person....hiding flaws only makes it harder in the future. If all people knew anything and everything possible, it helps the new owners be well informed. Then they can inform their vet and help to catch anything really early.
 

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What do you want us to say? You are having a second accidental litter out of a 9 yr old bitch who should have been spayed years ago. You have intact males in your home that should have already been neutered.

I think you should contact Poodle rescue in your area and enlist their help in placing these puppies.
I tend to agree w/ Cbrand somewhat too. You aren't new to breeding or Poodle ownership. I've never owned a Spoo and am not a breeder, but using baby gates to separate breeding dogs seems inadequate to me. I guess you know that now. I know many stud dog owners go so far as to board their stud when they have a female in heat. I also can't help but wonder why she wasn't spayed sooner or why you didn't spay despite the pregnancy. Were you not worried about Pyometra in the five years since her last litter?
I also agree with Cbrand. I am not sure why you thought a baby gate would keep you dogs from breeding seeing that it happened once already? Breeders don't even keep dogs next to each in kennel runs because there has been stories of the dog getting the bitch between the gate :wacko:
 

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You could "sell" the pups for a donation to the local poodle rescue. The new owner pays something directly to a rescue of your choice but it goes to helping out other poodles that are in the same situation but were not able to be placed by the "breeder'. Or for a donation to one of the Poodle Foundations or research for diseases that don't yet have a dna marker(addison's).

My question would be -what type if any guarantee could you possibly offer if you were to sell them outright? (rhetorical)

Why would you not register them with limited registration/spay-neuter contract so at least the owner would have a pedigree? (also rhetorical)
 

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Suprise!

Well, if we lived closer together I would definently take one of the pups because these little fur babies need a good home ... I have mentioned before that my lil Gi Gi is a rescue... of questionable parentage... and health... but I adore her... she's smart, sassy, and bull-headed and I wouldn't trade her for the world... just be honest and forthright to any potential owner... wether you decide to sell them... or work with a poodle rescue place to get homes for them.... Mama dog has health issues... the papa is in peak health with no issues and no hereditary health issues... just as simple as that... but .. for the sake of all concerned...spay her asap...
 

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I am not a breeder but I am planning on it in the future.

In my opinion I think you should take whatever profit you make off this litter and have both of your dogs fixed. I have seen MANY dogs with way less then stellar health come out of being spayed/neutered with flying colors. An ear infection is not a good enough excuse to not have a dog fixed.

Now after saying that I do think you should register the litter with Spay/Neuter contracts so new owners have some sort of registration and proof of ownership.

I would like to know who both dogs are out of, if you would not mine PM'ing me.

Good luck, they look like healthy pups :)
 

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Ok, I agree with some of the others that 'omg, she's 9 and she's had *another* accidental litter; didn't you learn the first time!!???"
BUT for all those that are going on about how on earth she 'let' it happen, can I point out that seeing it's been 5 years since the last time, that's perhaps 10 seasons she's since gone through where the system of keeping them separate HAS worked; it's not like she went and got pregnant on the next heat! She obviously tried, and succeeded, in keeping the dogs separate up until now. Yes I know it didn't work this time, something changed that meant it didn't work out, but don't go beating her up for assuming what HAD been working for the past 5 years wasn't going to work this time. You can go on about baby gates all you like, but if it has been working for 5 years you'd surely realise why she thought it'd work this time....

We KNOW what assumption makes of us all, but it has happened now, there nothing more to be done except find some good homes for some lovely pups.
 

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What flyingduster said. At least this situation isn't quite as egregious as my downstairs neighbor and his girlfriend. She brought her tiny little 15 month old Maltese (I swear, the dog doesn't weigh 3 pounds soaking wet) over without realizing she was in season, and, naturally, my neighbor's 6 month old INTACT male Maltese wasn't going to let this opportunity pass without taking action. They caught them once, already tied, and then decided to keep them separated--not by putting them in crates or getting a baby gate, but by making the male stay on the bed (which is high enough that he normally won't jump down off of). So the girlfriend is asleep on the bed, the boyfriend is taking a shower before work and he goes into the living room to find them tied...again.

That poor dog will probably have to have a caeserean (sp??), if it doesn't just kill her. See, that's what I consider irresponsible and worthy of disdain. The female is from a BYB and I strongly suspect the male is from a puppy mill (bought at a pet store--say no more). They have no idea what kind of health problems those dogs might have, especially since they are both just puppies at this point.

Anyway, I wish you luck with your puppies. They look so cute and I'm sure you won't have too much trouble placing them.
 

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I surely sorry to hear this. I was very lucky and barely dodge the bullet myself. She had a full false pregnancy and is now getting back to normal. My girl will be going to live with my sister during her heats from now on. She has three other females and I have the only intact male so that makes sense.

I am sure you will find good homes for the little ones. Make sure that you make inquiries of prospective owners to help insure that they are going to a good home. $300 may bring some undesirable people out of the woodwork as well as good, honest ones.
 

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Its the bitch that could be carrying unwanted things that MAY or MAY NOT show up..
Maybe you can do Hips, CERF and Thyroid, Addison so you can have it all clear for buyers . I do not know what tests Sire had and if he is clear by parentage, than you can exclude those diseases. Do his OFA and CERF also - and combined tests could give you pretty clear picture about genetic diseases she might or might not carry.

As far as I understood- she has overbite (happens in the show lines too) and some cysts - those are not necessarily inheritable - actually I never heard that they are.

She had some ear infections - many spoos have ear problems - again nothing major and nor genetic or life-threatening.

I agree that this breeding should not have happened but it happened and I think that we would have more productive time if we concentrate on what is the best NEXT step since step backward is not an option.

She will be spayed obviously .

I think that puppies should be registered but with limited registration - which means that they can not be bred.

Careful screening is important for a new homes - it is always important, but with puppies that go for "less than usual" - I can see BYBs lining up !!!!

Actually, here in CA rescue advises higher prices for kittens and puppies to weed out profiteers. Rescue kittens here go for150 to 200 $ !!!!!! (fixed). And any adds with "free kittens to good homes" causes "uproar" !!!!

Paritial2pooldes is obviously an honest person since he/she came here for advice and told honestly the whole story. Wrong decisions done regarding spaying - definitely ! And I think he/she definitely knows it or would not be here asking for advice but would be selling each pup for 1000 $ with full registration in 8 weeks and would not go through this tirade "for fun" . :rolffleyes:

I wish you the best of luck with everything !
 

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What flyingduster said. At least this situation isn't quite as egregious as my downstairs neighbor and his girlfriend. She brought her tiny little 15 month old Maltese (I swear, the dog doesn't weigh 3 pounds soaking wet) over without realizing she was in season, and, naturally, my neighbor's 6 month old INTACT male Maltese wasn't going to let this opportunity pass without taking action. They caught them once, already tied, and then decided to keep them separated--not by putting them in crates or getting a baby gate, but by making the male stay on the bed (which is high enough that he normally won't jump down off of). So the girlfriend is asleep on the bed, the boyfriend is taking a shower before work and he goes into the living room to find them tied...again.

That poor dog will probably have to have a caeserean (sp??), if it doesn't just kill her. See, that's what I consider irresponsible and worthy of disdain. The female is from a BYB and I strongly suspect the male is from a puppy mill (bought at a pet store--say no more). They have no idea what kind of health problems those dogs might have, especially since they are both just puppies at this point.

Anyway, I wish you luck with your puppies. They look so cute and I'm sure you won't have too much trouble placing them.
I honestly don't think that was accidental. Why were both dogs intact if they didn't plan on breeding? For toy breeds they are plenty old enough to be spay/neutered. Why would she bring her dog over, if not to breed her? Call me a cynic but I truly believe they were planning on getting into the breeding business. It evens sounds like that may be why he bought the male in the first place. A 3lb female is too small to breed and if the greedy idiot cared about her at all she would abort the litter.
 
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