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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey, I just discovered this forum and I’ve literally spent hours going through and reading various stuff. I love the community here, everyone seems so nice and there are just too many cute poodles out there! My question is my male phantom(black and apricot) and my female(aprictot) both mated accidentally. We knew she was in heat and we have been very cautious, but a simple look away for 30 seconds and THEY WERE STUCK TOGETHER!!!! So I know it’s a 50% chance she can be pregnant, and if so what colors do you think there is a possibility of. Our females mom is white, the dad is brown. And our male father is a phantom and the mother is a blue merle.
 

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Frankly, the colours of the puppies would be the least of my concerns at this stage - the risks and expense of pregnancy and whelping would loom larger. There is a significant risk to your girl (how old is she?), and you need to be prepared for a possible emergency caesarian, vet fees, time off work around her due date, sleepless nights, etc, etc - breeding dogs can be an expensive and exhausting process! If they have only just mated your vet may be able to help, or spaying is safe in the early stages of pregnancy.

Having said that it sounds as if there is a wide range of colour genes there, including - given the merle - some non-poodle ones. I am not up on the dominant/recessive colour genes, but I think it would be difficult to predict puppy colours and patterns.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Frankly, the colours of the puppies would be the least of my concerns at this stage - the risks and expense of pregnancy and whelping would loom larger. There is a significant risk to your girl (how old is she?), and you need to be prepared for a possible emergency caesarian, vet fees, time off work around her due date, sleepless nights, etc, etc - breeding dogs can be an expensive and exhausting process! If they have only just mated your vet may be able to help, or spaying is safe in the early stages of pregnancy.

Having said that it sounds as if there is a wide range of colour genes there, including - given the merle - some non-poodle ones. I am not up on the dominant/recessive colour genes, but I think it would be difficult to predict puppy colours and patterns.
We have the funds to provide our dog with the resources needed as far as vet visits, ultra sounds, welping box, etc etc..I do appreciate your concern because at the end of the day it is all about the dogs, but us researching for hours we have a pretty good understanding about what’s needed for our girl. We were wondering about the colors because we do have family members who we trust to have the pups whenever they are old enough, but we just wanted an idea on what we can tell them on what color they will potentially be. She is 2 1/2 and the boy is 2. And we would never want to be breeders, we have been very cautious when she is in heat, for at least 2 years and we have never made a mistake, unfortunately my wife made one and looked away for about 30 seconds, there was no noise to indicate anything happened and when she turned around they were stuck. We are fortunate enough though that my wife is mainly in the house and whenever she goes to work I’m home so there will be constant care and able supervision through the next 9 weeks or so.
 

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Glad to hear you have a plan and best wishes for a smooth birth and puppyhood. I would probably get one of them spayed or neutered after the puppies have come to avoid this in future. Its always difficult when you have two opposite sexed intact dogs in one house, stuff happens. I'm also not up on colors but I imagine you will have some partis even a white, but I'm only guessing. Good luck with it all. I'm curious so I hope you will update when the puppies arrive.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you so much! Yeah I’m completely clueless when it comes to the potential colors they can have, and we will for sure get one of them sprayed and neutered after this. And I will for sure keep everyone updated on what the colors will be!
Glad to hear you have a plan and best wishes for a smooth birth and puppyhood. I would probably get one of them spayed or neutered after the puppies have come to avoid this in future. Its always difficult when you have two opposite sexed intact dogs in one house, stuff happens. I'm also not up on colors but I imagine you will have some partis even a white, but I'm only guessing. Good luck with it all. I'm curious so I hope you will update when the puppies arrive.
 

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Much relieved to hear that you are so well prepared! I think I would tell potential new puppy owners that the colour combinations will be a lovely surprise for everyone, including Poodle Forum - I too am looking forward to the update.
 

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Wow, what an interesting potential of colors. fjm is right, there's going to be a lovely surprise for everyone. I hope you post photos.

You should also make potential parents aware that the male is not full poodle - there are no merle poodles. That merle "poodle" was mix with another merle breed such as a corgi or collie. It's possible that some of that breed's characteristics may make it's way into the puppy.

Do contact your vet and follow all their suggestions. I have one friend who almost lost her dog when the one puppy she was carrying pulled away from the wall of the uterus (Placental abruption) and her dog had to have an emergency C-section. She almost lost her dog and the puppy was still born. She's an experienced breeder so she recognized the signs that there were problems and rushed her dog to the emergency vet hospital. I'm not writing this to scare you, but to make you aware to keep on top of this.
 

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This doesn't sound like a choice you'd consider, so I'm posting it for anyone else who might run across this topic. It is possible to terminate the pregnancy, if there is one, by doing the spay asap.

You don't say if your pups are toy, mini, or standards, and especially important that the male is no larger than the female.

There is a lot of risk for the mom and the pups in giving birth. It's not something to go alone. You need a breeder/mentor asap, in addition to vet care.

For the possible colors, that's very unpredictable. I'm not sure how the merle will affect the poodle colors, but I'm pretty sure the poodle colors mentioned are all fading gene colors, so whatever color the puppies are born, they're not likely to stay the same as when born and are likely to fade to lighter versions of how they look when born.

Here's a link to a site which explains color breeding in poodles and what might result.

 

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I am just curious as to why you were keeping two intact dogs in the same house ?

I think everyone has given very good advice. Do be sure to tell the future owners the female is not purebred, so hopefully nobody breeds any of the puppies.

I wish you a happy ending.
 

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Welcome John James, and I have several resources for you about color genetics followed by superior pregnancy and whelping articles.

1) Easy Reading for the layman: Dog Coat Colour Genetics by Jess Chappell

2) Moderate to Advanced Reading: Genetics of Coat Color and Type in Dogs, by Dr. Sheila Schmultz

Puppies to be born - color TBD, below, their parents and grandparents:

Father - Black & Apricot Phantom
Mother - Apricot

Paternal Grandfather: Phantom
Paternal Grandmother: Blue Merle

Maternal Grandfather: Brown
Maternal Grandmother: White

I can tell you what you probably won't get: Solid blacks, silvers or reds.
Otherwise: Black/Apricot Phantoms or Apricots, maybe a cream.

With the two black-apricot phantoms and the blue Merle, if you get phantom pups, I'd guess black/apricot or a black/silver, gray, blue. Brown might be in the cards for a phantom brown combination, but without know why, I suspect these odds are as low as getting a pure white.

The Merle gene will be the in third generation of the puppies. One or more could pop up as a Merle - or as a mismarked or a abstract. Even a brindle pattern is on the table. It like Roulette with that combination :)

Read: Mismark Case Study: Poodle, with photos. I'm guessing again, but I suspect the Phantom and Merle genetics could throw you one of these.

Next, I'll refer you to a site with a wealth of excellent pregnancy, labor, and week by week for newborns articles with photos galore. If you scroll to the bottom of any of these articles, you will see many other related articles. Here are just a few:

Pregnancy Guide
Whelping Kit
First and Second Stages of Labor
Sometimes Things Do Not Go As Planned

Feel free to drop in at our Member Introductions area and tell us the names of your dogs and show a photo or two, or, we have other cool sections like Poodle Pictures, Talk, Health, and of course, this one for more questions about your next nine weeks - if she's pregnant, which you may not know for sure until Week 5 or 6. However it turns out, keep us posted and best wishes.

Vita
 

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What about health tests? I wouldn't consider breeding or getting a puppy without all relevant health tests of both parents with good results.

I know this is an accidental mating but most tests can be done within weeks.

I know our KC requires PRA and OC. And eye tests. Standards also require hips and elbows.
I'm not sure what DNA tests are required in the US maybe another member can answer this?
 

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I am dealing with the long term problems of people who randomly bred their dogs, no one should be breeding dogs unless they understand the full and lasting consequences of what they are doing.
Not every dog should be bred. It's the dogs that pay the end because of ignorance.
I have spent $17,000 on my Ill bred toy poodle Beatrice, luxating patella both knees, chronic kidney disease both are hereditary and now she dying from terminal cancer she isn't even 6 yrs old yet.

Spay and neuter your pets if cannot figure out to keep the apart most breeders do not keep males and females in the same house when the female is in heat. The rest keep them separate unless breeding.

My dear Pia has back issues, and now obviously elbow issues. She has distachsis or inward growing lashes, all these issues hereditary so very testable. She hasn't been as expensive as Beatrice but we are at $6K in vet expenses Pia is 5 1/2 yrs old.

Beatrice's breeder stopped returning my calls, Pia is a second hand pup because she was and still is a poo eating dog.

By not knowing what you doing you are hurting a beautiful breed and generations of future dogs.

Yes I am mad

I am sick of some folks thinking what they do in regards to breeding doesn't matter, it will be fine because their dog is cute or sweet so surely that is a reason the breed.
It's the dogs that pay.
Merle Poodles aren't full poodles, the Merle gene is a stick of dynamite that can cause horrible deformities. Merle only naturally occurs in a few breeds, and those breeders have to be careful who is bred to who.

We had rules here that said the forum doesn't promote the breeding of mixes.
Poodle mixes are lovely but should'nt be bred for $$$$, there so many mix breed dogs out there already needing homes.

So your dog has puppies then what, what happens if there is something wrong with them so then what.

The innocent dog pays for the ignorance and or greed of their breeders.

Yeah I am furious do no encourage people to breed that shouldn't
 

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Since this is what is called an "oops" litter, I just want to throw this out there that it would be very unethical to gain anything financially from these puppies. Meaning, I can understand charging a small rehoming fee, but not making any kind of profit. Additionally, you must inform future owners that you did not health test either dog, and so health problems might arise, and those owners need to be prepared for that. Might be wise to have a contract ready. If you are giving the puppies to relatives, I can see one of them expecting you to pay for medical costs if things go wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Much relieved to hear that you are so well prepared! I think I would tell potential new puppy owners that the colour combinations will be a lovely surprise for everyone, including Poodle Forum - I too am looking forward to the update.
Yes I know we are definitely excited about that!
 

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Since this is what is called an "oops" litter, I just want to throw this out there that it would be very unethical to gain anything financially from these puppies. Meaning, I can understand charging a small rehoming fee, but not making any kind of profit. Additionally, you must inform future owners that you did not health test either dog, and so health problems might arise, and those owners need to be prepared for that. Might be wise to have a contract ready. If you are giving the puppies to relatives, I can see one of them expecting you to pay for medical costs if things go wrong.
Yeah this isn’t a financial gain of any sort, we are blessed we have family that we actually trust and the funds that if anything goes wrong we can definitely cover anything that comes up.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thank you so much! Yes I did think that color combination was strange for a poodle to have even though she was gorgeous. We have our vet on standby if anything goes wrong! Here are our two babies.
Wow, what an interesting potential of colors. fjm is right, there's going to be a lovely surprise for everyone. I hope you post photos.

You should also make potential parents aware that the male is not full poodle - there are no merle poodles. That merle "poodle" was mix with another merle breed such as a corgi or collie. It's possible that some of that breed's characteristics may make it's way into the puppy.

Do contact your vet and follow all their suggestions. I have one friend who almost lost her dog when the one puppy she was carrying pulled away from the wall of the uterus (Placental abruption) and her dog had to have an emergency C-section. She almost lost her dog and the puppy was still born. She's an experienced breeder so she recognized the signs that there were problems and rushed her dog to the emergency vet hospital. I'm not writing this to scare you, but to make you aware to keep on top of this.
 

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As Super Moderator, I will gently but firmly warn members to remain focused on what information the OP requested in his thread and have removed comments from four members.

This is the Breeding subforum of the Poodle Talk forum area of PF and the appropriate place for members to ask questions related to breeding.


Members, threads like these are not be used as a backdoor opportunity to slide in your values, be disrespectful, and/or hijack the original question, or "interrogate" a member. This is a near-guarantee of making them feel unwelcome and even chasing away members, and all members have the right to enjoy to the forum.

In this case, asking him:

  • Why he was keeping two intact dogs in the same house is pointless. It has the undertone of being negatively judgmental which is a covert form of disrespect. He volunteered the mating was an accident, so it's a done deal, and his answer would have changed nothing. Even if it was deliberate, that's frankly no one's business. In the words of Plum Crazy, "The Poodle Forum is not the Breeder Police - nor are its members. The Forum does not encourage breeding, nor can it restrict breeding."
  • Telling him you wouldn't consider breeding or getting a puppy without all relevant health tests of both parents with good results is fine and I agree - for your own or another thread about the value of doing these and where to get testing. Btw, threads like those already exists but feel free to create another. On a thread like this one, it's far more helpful to suggest genetic health testing at some point but not assume they haven't. Instead, the wording comes across as a put down of the OP which is disrespectful.
  • Using the OP's thread and situation as an opportunity to take out your anger and how you are sick of "some folks" thinking what they do in regards to breeding doesn't matter. I well understand that view and the heartache and expense when genetics go unexpectedly wrong. However, in this thread it is disrespectful of the OP and hijacking the original intent and questions.
  • "Reminding" the OP of the Merle background (which he already knows and stated in his second post, and that 1 of the 4 grandparents was a Merle, inferring that any puppies won't be purebred poodles is also pointless. He knows this, stated this, so there's no point in repeating it. It's like being overweight yet people tell you you're fat, as though you don't have a mirror.
  • Telling him "it would be very unethical to gain anything financially from these puppies" is an opinion, but it has no place on this thread. The OP did not ask members how much he should charge for any resulting puppies, and when/if the time comes, it isn't anyone business.
Members, please keep these points in mind and stay focused, in this thread and future threads on this subforum.

Thank you,

Vita
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Welcome John James, and I have several resources for you about color genetics followed by superior pregnancy and whelping articles.

1) Easy Reading for the layman: Dog Coat Colour Genetics by Jess Chappell

2) Moderate to Advanced Reading: Genetics of Coat Color and Type in Dogs, by Dr. Sheila Schmultz

Puppies to be born - color TBD, below, their parents and grandparents:

Father - Black & Apricot Phantom
Mother - Apricot

Paternal Grandfather: Phantom
Paternal Grandmother: Blue Merle

Maternal Grandfather: Brown
Maternal Grandmother: White

I can tell you what you probably won't get: Solid blacks, silvers or reds.
Otherwise: Black/Apricot Phantoms or Apricots, maybe a cream.

With the two black-apricot phantoms and the blue Merle, if you get phantom pups, I'd guess black/apricot or a black/silver, gray, blue. Brown might be in the cards for a phantom brown combination, but without know why, I suspect these odds are as low as getting a pure white.

The Merle gene will be the in third generation of the puppies. One or more could pop up as a Merle - or as a mismarked or a abstract. Even a brindle pattern is on the table. It like Roulette with that combination :)

Read: Mismark Case Study: Poodle, with photos. I'm guessing again, but I suspect the Phantom and Merle genetics could throw you one of these.

Next, I'll refer you to a site with a wealth of excellent pregnancy, labor, and week by week for newborns articles with photos galore. If you scroll to the bottom of any of these articles, you will see many other related articles. Here are just a few:

Pregnancy Guide
Whelping Kit
First and Second Stages of Labor
Sometimes Things Do Not Go As Planned

Feel free to drop in at our Member Introductions area and tell us the names of your dogs and show a photo or two, or, we have other cool sections like Poodle Pictures, Talk, Health, and of course, this one for more questions about your next nine weeks - if she's pregnant, which you may not know for sure until Week 5 or 6. However it turns out, keep us posted and best wishes.

Vita
Thank you so much for the help I will! Here are our babies.
 
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