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Discussion Starter #1
Another random thought of mine that IS NOT intended to start any kind of arguements, so don't.

Whats the take on breeders who breed for companions and do not nor have ever shown their breed of choice?

I have a friend who purchased a poodle from a breeder who does not show at all, nor does she do any field work with her poodles. She does therapy work and maybe a little bit of formal obedience and rally. So far as I know the dogs she breeds are fully health tested. In addition to requiring spay and nueter of puppuers in her contract she also requires you to commit to taking the puppy to puppy classes, basic and advanced training, requires a CGC cert on the dog and REQUIRES the dog to be certified as a therapy dog. I beleive she holds the papers or stays on as co-owner until these conditions are met. She does not require that you do any sort of compition obedience or therapy work but she does make you do the training and certify. I also have a client who purchased from a similar type breeder. She doesn't show, breeds only companions. Her dogs are fully health tested and she sells them on spay and neuter contracts. This client asked me though one time if she should consider looking for a breeder who shows their dogs for her next poodle. My first response was YES! Dog shows are intended to be a way to evaulate breeding stock. On the other hand though, so long as the health testing is done and dogs are clear of defects isn't that just as important as the pedigree? I'm noticing a lot of breeder who don't breed show dogs lately but they wouldn't fall into what I call a backyard breeder either.
 

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Ideally, breeders whether they show or don't breed two dogs who are healthy, have good genes and confirmation to keep the breed solid and or better it.

I know Star's father came from a reputable kennel that no longer showed (the woman who had the dogs was elderly and too tired to deal with the circuit, handlers, etc. Her dogs are still quality dogs who other breeders like to cross lines with....breeders who do show like her dogs for temperment and beauty).
 

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My take on this is more people need to do more research on a breed and what breeder ethics are before getting a dog. Of course that is a “wish” . You can tell what a good breeder is or not just by how their dogs look or by how much knowledge the breeder has.

Scenario
A)Breeder A has been showing/titling and been breeding dogs for over 15years and decided to stop showing/titling her dogs for whatever reason. All of her dogs are health tested she knows the pedigree and the breed really well.

B)Breeder B has been breeding dogs for over 15 years and she has never shown/titled her dogs at all. She health test and that’s it.


Out of the breeders I would only choose A because they have an eye for conformation and the perfect temperament. There are too many people out their breeding dogs who are health tested and have no knowledge of pedigrees or anything to improve the breed. I am not saying all show breeders are great , this would be a lie! There are some show breeders who just want to win and that is all they care about. I have seen many ill tempered dogs ring side!

Here is an example Breeder B

This lady is really on one lol she believes her GSD’s are “old fashion” GSD…… http://www.pioneergermanshepherds.com Her dogs look nothing like a true GSD , they have floppy ears , they weigh over 100pounds … She has been breeding them for years and they have their hips done. She does not show them or test them mentally in any events. What is so different from her dogs than a rescue dog ? I would never buy from a breeder like this. There are too many breeders that fall in this category. There are plenty of shelter dogs with great temperments that are healthty Example: Jasmine my bf's amstaff/pit bull

Dog events are intended for people to learn and preserve the breed. If I was a breeder I would want my stock evaluated by a judge , I would want my dogs to prove to me they have perfect temperaments to be breed. If the breeder thinks showing or titling is not worth the time then maybe they should find another hobby...
 

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I guess I don't have a huge problem with someone who is breeding, but isn't showing, as long as they are doing the health testing and they ARE keeping the breed standard in mind and their dogs are of sound mind and health. I know there are breeders out there breeding their dogs specifically for agility, flyball, obedience, etc... - I would prefer this type of breeder (as long as the health/temperment is tested and good) over someone that doesn't do ANY showing at all. Just my personal choice.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I guess I don't have a huge problem with someone who is breeding, but isn't showing, as long as they are doing the health testing and they ARE keeping the breed standard in mind and their dogs are of sound mind and health. I know there are breeders out there breeding their dogs specifically for agility, flyball, obedience, etc... - I would prefer this type of breeder (as long as the health/temperment is tested and good) over someone that doesn't do ANY showing at all. Just my personal choice.
Personaly, and this is just me, if given the choice to have another IG it would be from a breeder who is doing things like agility with them. Four out of the five I showed acted like little butt heads 99% of the time, and were scared little rat dogs. I even had one try and take a dislike to the judge at a show and offer to bite him. She was pulled from my show string immedietly and sent back to the breeder. Only ONE of them acted like a real dog and go figure she ended up being to large to show and was placed in a pet home before she even made it to the ring lol. Of course it didn't stop me from falling in love with one of them and bawling my eyes out when I had to give her back to the breeder/owner who had decided he was going to get out of dogs and be a preacher instead, and was placing all of his dogs including the ones being shown in pet homes. He offered to give her to me if it ment that much to me, but I was getting ready to get married and knew when I moved I wouldn't be able to take her with me.

Part of what got me thinking about this, aside from the client who asked me, was we had a lady in maine contact us about a tibbie puppy. She had a story about how she wanted a dog for her daughter to show in juniors, they had a cavilier but she turned out to be pet quality and then at just a week prior had dropped dead without warning (which sadly enough isn't uncommon for the breed). She tells me that she personaly breeds and exhibited labs and was a second generation dog person, he mother was into labs and now has added hounds to the kennel. She does all the health testing you can imagine before breeding her dogs She had all the right answers and I was almost considering her for the puppy we have now, which she was really really interested in until I visited her website.

While I admire that she is doing all the health tests on her dogs when I looked at her wesbite I noticed that not a single one of her dogs was a champion, or for that matter had any obedience, rally, agility, hunting, or any other kind of titles. She had two CGC's and that was it. Between he 3 count them THREE dogs and a reccently added fourth dog she has had 13 litters.... :moneymouth: almost all of which were sired by the same stud dog. That got my attention! She had four litter last year alone. Not one show photo, not one mention of shows or show quality dogs, and no mention of any other dog realted events. Meanwhile she sells these puppies for 900 dollars for limited reg. Add to that the photos on the site showed dogs that had heads unlike anything I have ever seen in the ring, and were very very long and lanky body styles that I haven't even seen in working field dogs.....

She was turned down for a puppy from us ever and this puppy in particular and because of whats above and a couple of other issues that I noted when talking to her. Afterwards she had the nerve to be angry and send a really nasty e-mail out not only to us but about my mother and I. Interesting....
 

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To me anyone who breeds more then 2 litters a year who does no showing of any kind is a back yard breeder, even if they health test.

I don't mind if someone has a couple of dogs from champion lines who breeds them just because they love the breed and enjoy having puppies.

Some show breeders are nothing more then glorified puppymillers. There is a Rottie breeder I LOVE but has 20+ dogs who all live in kennels. Sure they are shown, titled and health tested but at what cost to the animal? I much prefer to buy a dog from someone who lets the dogs live with them and cares about them more then just being show dogs.

As for the Shepherd breeder that was talked about all Shepherd have floppy ears when pups and unless braced may not ever stand. Same goes for Shetland Sheepdogs and Collies.

I do think that the breed standard should be kept in mind when breeding dogs, temperament and structure wise.

I will never be tolerant of mixed breeding, you want a mixed breed go to a shelter.

I honestly believe if there were more "hobbie" breeders there would be less BYB and mills.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Some show breeders are nothing more then glorified puppymillers. There is a Rottie breeder I LOVE but has 20+ dogs who all live in kennels. Sure they are shown, titled and health tested but at what cost to the animal? I much prefer to buy a dog from someone who lets the dogs live with them and cares about them more then just being show dogs.
Thats true too, I hadn't factored that into my thoughs. I do factor it in when placing a litter of puppies. I don't breed often, one litter about every two years. I don't send my puppies to show homes though unless they are going to be pets first and show dogs second. It irritates the crap out of my mother who is of a different opinon. I have some funny ideas about breeding I suppose but I don't ever sell a puppy with the understanding that it can be bred later even if it finishes a championship, I very rarely send puppies to fellow tibbie breeders.

Sometimes my random thoughs bother me LoL and I just have to put them out there for other people to comment on
 

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Personaly, and this is just me, if given the choice to have another IG it would be from a breeder who is doing things like agility with them. Four out of the five I showed acted like little butt heads 99% of the time, and were scared little rat dogs. I even had one try and take a dislike to the judge at a show and offer to bite him. She was pulled from my show string immedietly and sent back to the breeder. Only ONE of them acted like a real dog and go figure she ended up being to large to show and was placed in a pet home before she even made it to the ring lol. Of course it didn't stop me from falling in love with one of them and bawling my eyes out when I had to give her back to the breeder/owner who had decided he was going to get out of dogs and be a preacher instead, and was placing all of his dogs including the ones being shown in pet homes. He offered to give her to me if it ment that much to me, but I was getting ready to get married and knew when I moved I wouldn't be able to take her with me.

Part of what got me thinking about this, aside from the client who asked me, was we had a lady in maine contact us about a tibbie puppy. She had a story about how she wanted a dog for her daughter to show in juniors, they had a cavilier but she turned out to be pet quality and then at just a week prior had dropped dead without warning (which sadly enough isn't uncommon for the breed). She tells me that she personaly breeds and exhibited labs and was a second generation dog person, he mother was into labs and now has added hounds to the kennel. She does all the health testing you can imagine before breeding her dogs She had all the right answers and I was almost considering her for the puppy we have now, which she was really really interested in until I visited her website.

While I admire that she is doing all the health tests on her dogs when I looked at her wesbite I noticed that not a single one of her dogs was a champion, or for that matter had any obedience, rally, agility, hunting, or any other kind of titles. She had two CGC's and that was it. Between he 3 count them THREE dogs and a reccently added fourth dog she has had 13 litters.... :moneymouth: almost all of which were sired by the same stud dog. That got my attention! She had four litter last year alone. Not one show photo, not one mention of shows or show quality dogs, and no mention of any other dog realted events. Meanwhile she sells these puppies for 900 dollars for limited reg. Add to that the photos on the site showed dogs that had heads unlike anything I have ever seen in the ring, and were very very long and lanky body styles that I haven't even seen in working field dogs.....

She was turned down for a puppy from us ever and this puppy in particular and because of whats above and a couple of other issues that I noted when talking to her. Afterwards she had the nerve to be angry and send a really nasty e-mail out not only to us but about my mother and I. Interesting....
That is a crazy story, this is why I check people out too lol. I had this one lady call me about one of my cats and I told her she is 9yrs old retired
And will be spayed prior to placing. She asked me why and I told her She is a pet only and I will not allow her to be bred. She told me she had a 10yr old cat right now that gave birth and she went on to say I let them breed until they don't want to have kittens any more. I told her I would call her back tomorrow ( yeah right lol) I called her the next day and told her we decided to keep her and she was no longer available. :moneymouth:
 

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I no longer place such importance on showing dogs - and here's why. All 3 of my bedlingtons came from the same breeder. The first one I got was a retired show dog (#2 in the country at one point) who was a wonderful example of his breed. I just needed a hypo-allergenic pet and he took a shine to us, so he came to us on co-ownership. The breeder only bred every 2 or 3 years and generally imported her breeding stock to maintain what she considered to be good English lines and conformation.

Our dog was only used twice for breeding. The first dam was a well-tempered dog who also had good conformation. The second dam had a terrible temperament but good conformation. The breeder's rationale was that not all of the puppies would be submissive-agressive.

We got a puppy from each litter. The male that we got from the second litter had a bad bite. She wanted me to keep him intact so she could use him for breeding. When I disagreed, she said that not all the puppies would have a bad bite and his coat was so good that she wanted to pass that along. His mother was the nasty one. :banghead: In my opinion, neither one of them should have been used in any breeding program. And the son wasn't. We had him neutered, which she reluctantly agreed to.

All of her breeding stock were champions. Unfortunately, that doesn't guarantee a good temperament. Makes you wonder if that doesn't contribute to the number of purebred dogs in shelters, doesn't it?

I'm much more interested now in whether the relatives have obedience titles and the like.

Just my opinion, based on my experience. Your mileage may vary, as they say :smile:
 

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As long as they are healthy that's all that matters to me.

And frankly, I would say probably more than 95% of dogs out there are from "non show breeding" breeders/houses... and most dogs are "ok".
 

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We did the dog from a great lines champion stock his parents won and was top dogs in Canada at the time. The dog had to be put down at 3 years old do to a very unstable temperment and could have killed a child in a second. We were told by a handler to lock him in a kennel with a key. We had him pts as what a life is that and for all invovled.

All the rest have been from homes and other then our Mastiff living till 6 do to bad hips which could be our fault or breeding have had great family dogs.

To the OP I would not buy a dog from someone that breeds her own dogs and demands I spay or nuter mine. Demands they go on to get CGC or other titles yet doesn't take the time to title her dogs. I imagine her prices are not cheap either. Kinda seams to me she wants to keep the market to herself on her breed of choice. My opinion though.
 

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All of her breeding stock were champions. Unfortunately, that doesn't guarantee a good temperament. Makes you wonder if that doesn't contribute to the number of purebred dogs in shelters, doesn't it?

I'm much more interested now in whether the relatives have obedience titles and the like.

Just my opinion, based on my experience. Your mileage may vary, as they say :smile:
I agree some show breeders are on ego trips they just want to win and do not care to progress the breed. This is why is key to research and get to know the breeder. So far the breeders I have been talking to have been GOLD! they really care about the breed:star:
 
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