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2nd time poodle mom

427 views 16 replies 4 participants last post by  HarleyRockabillyGirl  
#1 ·
Hi!

I got my first poodle in 2002 and it changed my life forever. Casey wad amazing and we were lucky enough to have him for 20 years. 3 years ago my dad really missed him and got his own poodle puppy he named Loki. I was raised on a sheep ranch and grew up training dogs so I am comfortable with the basics and have been trying to help trying Loki since my father is in his 80s. Last October my father had a massive heart attack and while he was in the hospital Loki bit his wife.

I took him in and after the incident her family admitted to us hat she was beating the puppy every time we left the room. So now Loki has become my dog officially. This is the first time I have had to train essentially a rescue.

I have managed to fix potty training and resource guarding. We have had huge improvements on walks. There are a couple issues that we are having that I am hoping to get advice on.

1.
 
#2 ·
1. Loki doesn't appear to have any social skills. He growls and lunges at any new person or animal in his environment. He's a revert at 18" tall. This scares most other people and sets off other animals. When a calm person or animal ignores his shenanigans he instantly stops the growling and lunging and becomes very sweet. He has only ever bitten the person we know was hitting him and she admits to hitting him just prior to him biting.

Any advice on training/socializing the aggressive posturing out? I run him 2 miles a day with a dog pack and his vet advised L-theonine. He has improved greatly but still gets too excited and even with no longer growling or lunging the excited yelping still makes people nervous. Maybe I am doing right but it will just take more time?
 
#3 ·
2. Loki gets so excited when you talk to him it is like his brain shuts off and he just doesn't listen to commands. Say sit he starts whining, jumping, and going in circles. Say stay and he paces frantically. So I have switched to hand signals and sounds like "shhst" and tongue clicking. Works great when he is calm but once he is excited and fixated it's nearly impossible to get the eye contact so the hand signals work
 
#10 ·
How very kind of you to take in this poor little guy.


Sometimes humans do best when people use fewer words, and I am finding using less verbal language sometimes helps my puppy. Maybe your pup would be a good candidate for clicker training. I have an older dog that it wasn’t right for, but it is really helping me with my youngest. Sometimes he’s all over the place, and I will watch for correct behaviors, then click and treat.

Also, enrichment toys might help him to settle somewhat.

I hope you stick around so we can follow his journey.
 
#4 ·
3. His breeder and my father both had him crate trained at night. Since I have had him we have kept it up. He whines a lot at night and I have been ignoring it hoping it would go away. Been almost a year and he still whines half the night. Can't figure out why. It's not new and he still happily goes in when I tell him goodnight and gets his greenie for doing so. Is this left over side effect from the traumatic rehome? Will this go away eventually? My roommate thinks it's more about me. He and my daughter both say that he is instantly a different dog when I leave the room and is way more anxious when I am out of sight. I have been having both of them work with him more on training to try and give him a wider sense of safety and calm.

Any advice highly welcome. He will be an amazing dog once we clear these last few hurdles
 
#5 ·
4. Last thing. My daughter has a 10 year old cat. It would be a dream if we could give them both free reign of the house. We got her cat shelves and have been working with the enjoying sharing a room together and reward with treats for calm curiosity. Any advice for helping him learn to ignore the cat so they never have to be on leash at home?
 
#6 ·
Aw. Poor Loki. I'm glad you were able to get him out of a terrible situation. I'd like to know more about his resource guarding issues and how you solved them. That will give me a better idea of what foundations he has and where you might need to back track. It sounds like he has both trauma and temperament issues that you'll need to work through as you sort out his training issues.
 
#7 ·
My dad's wife has a bishon mix that friends rescued from a park. He's 13 years old now. He got along great with Casey our prior poodle. When we got Loki my dad, the breeder, and I talked to her about structured play while loki was a puppy and to let her dog play with him. They would roll around on the floor vocalizing and everything would be fine. Both dogs happy. But she would freak out and scream loki was a monster and going to hurt her boy. So she started tying up Loki when the dogs would be fed. She let's her dog sit on a chair next to her at the dining table and eat table scraps while loki would be tied up.

I warned her the disparate treatment combined with tying up loki at meal time was going to risk creating food aggression. When ever I was over and would feed the dogs myself there were no issues and no one was tied up. I don't allow any dogs to eat from the table. Then one day my dad told me he tried to feed hem off leash and Loki growled at the other dog. Next time I was over I did he feeding ritual and any time loki looked tense or fixated I would stand between them and claim the bowls. Feeding continued when both dogs were laying down and calm next to each other.

When I took custody of him he growled once at me when I walked by the bowl. I did the same thing as before and periodically remove his bowl to practice that it is under our control and he will have enough food treats and love when he is calm and listening. Now I can sit on the couch, eat dinner and drop food and he won't go near it unless given verbal permission. So I think we are doing really well there. Hope that explainer helps
 
#13 ·
Regarding clicker training, the Kikopup channel on YouTube has a good introductory video.

To start, it sounds like Loki is a bit anxious. I'm guessing it's a combination of inherent temperament plus the maltreatment he got during his puppyhood.

The reason I was asking about how you handled resource guarding is that anxiety can increase a dog's natural tendencies to guard their stuff. A big mistake people make when dealing with resource guarding is to play mind games with the dog. They barge in and take the dog's stuff away to prove some kind of point. Maybe the point is that dogs must submit to having stuff taken away. Maybe the point is to show the dog that humans will give stuff back. Whatever the point of the mind game is, what the dog takes away is a perpetual fear that he will lose his stuff. This makes the dog more anxious. It can also make the dog more likely to get weird and possessive over stuff that shouldn't normally matter to dogs, like used Kleenex or crumpled grocery receipts. It sounds like you dodged a bullet with Loki. His resource guarding tendencies weren't so bad that he got pushed into this extreme sort of resource guarding. Before doing any further work with the resource guarding, including trying to teach him the command Leave It, I would suggest reading a book called Mine! by Jean Donaldson. Meanwhile, simply set up a safe zone where he can eat in peace and nobody bothers him.

Regarding his barking lunging meltdowns, this sounds like a mixture of nervousness and frustration. He might be nervous about meeting other dogs and people. At the same time, he might actually want the interaction. So he's nervous and possibly conflicted. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to focus on the symptoms, the barking and posturing, rather than the dog's underlying emotional upset. Especially since he was beaten so much as a pup, he probably does not yet trust his handler to be a protector. I would take a two pronged approach to this. One is to work on changing his feelings about other dogs and people. The other is to teach him a task he can perform when you need him to be calm.

A tangent here. In training, there is something called the three D's: Distance, Distraction, Duration. I'd assume Loki can hold it together when he catches a three second glimpse of a dog quietly walking a quarter mile away. All three Ds are favorable in that scenario: the dog is far away, the dog isn't doing anything interesting, and the dog disappears from view before Loki can get worked up. Any time you increase the difficulty of one of the D's, it's likely you will need to decrease the difficulty of at least one of the others.

There is also something called trigger stacking. What that means is that stress builds up each time a dog is exposed to a trigger. It's actually biological; things like cortisol and adrenaline get secreted in response to the trigger. These hormones take a while to dissipate, hours or even days. So perhaps Loki sees a strange dog in the morning. He stiffens but doesn't react. Then he sees a second strange dog. This time he has a screaming meltdown. The second dog didn't do anything different than the first dog. The difference is in Loki; he saw the second dog when he was already on edge from the first dog. And, having had the screaming meltdown, he may stay keyed up for the rest of the day or even into the next day. It's the stress hormones messing with his brain. He can't help it.

Back to barking and lunging. While you are working on this, try to avoid putting him in situations where he is rehearsing the aggressive posturing. Start by figuring out roughly how close the other dog or person can be before Loki starts reacting. It's quite likely that a barking dog or squealing running child (high distraction) needs to be further away than a quiet dog or human. He might need more distance if he's already been exposed to another trigger that day. Do your best to keep triggers outside Loki's reaction zone. That may mean you turn around and walk a different route. If he's already dealt with a lot of triggers, especially if he's had a meltdown, it might mean you forgo the walk and just sniff around in your own yard.

At home, and then on walks, teach him a couple of games he can play with you. I'm a huge fan of teaching Touch. Once he masters the basics of Touch, you can then use it to move him into positions around your body. You can teach him to come to your left heel, to your right heel, to get behind you, and to face you. It's a great way to get some fun clicker training in.

Once he is somewhat solid on Touch, Heel, Behind, and Face at home, try going out to a park or someplace where you will see people or dogs in the distance. When you see him looking, before he stiffens and much before he starts barking, whisper his name and give him a treat. He will probably eat his treat and start looking at the Big Scary again. Hopefully he glances back at you. The moment he does, give him another treat. Just sit there watching things and giving him treats while he remains quiet. You're quiet and calm, the Big Scary isn't doing anything weird, it's just a nice day in the park with lots of treats. If he starts to stiffen, ask for a Touch. Then ask him to move to the side of your body opposite the Big Scary. You are now body blocking him from the Big Scary. That should take some of the pressure off him. He doesn't need to worry about defending himself, because you are dealing with things. If he's still nervous, refusing to eat treats, or vocalizing, put the treats away and tell him Let's Go. Move away from the Big Scary until he feels safe again.
 
#15 ·
Regarding clicker training, the Kikopup channel on YouTube has a good introductory video.

To start, it sounds like Loki is a bit anxious. I'm guessing it's a combination of inherent temperament plus the maltreatment he got during his puppyhood.

The reason I was asking about how you handled resource guarding is that anxiety can increase a dog's natural tendencies to guard their stuff. A big mistake people make when dealing with resource guarding is to play mind games with the dog. They barge in and take the dog's stuff away to prove some kind of point. Maybe the point is that dogs must submit to having stuff taken away. Maybe the point is to show the dog that humans will give stuff back. Whatever the point of the mind game is, what the dog takes away is a perpetual fear that he will lose his stuff. This makes the dog more anxious. It can also make the dog more likely to get weird and possessive over stuff that shouldn't normally matter to dogs, like used Kleenex or crumpled grocery receipts. It sounds like you dodged a bullet with Loki. His resource guarding tendencies weren't so bad that he got pushed into this extreme sort of resource guarding. Before doing any further work with the resource guarding, including trying to teach him the command Leave It, I would suggest reading a book called Mine! by Jean Donaldson. Meanwhile, simply set up a safe zone where he can eat in peace and nobody bothers him.

Regarding his barking lunging meltdowns, this sounds like a mixture of nervousness and frustration. He might be nervous about meeting other dogs and people. At the same time, he might actually want the interaction. So he's nervous and possibly conflicted. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to focus on the symptoms, the barking and posturing, rather than the dog's underlying emotional upset. Especially since he was beaten so much as a pup, he probably does not yet trust his handler to be a protector. I would take a two pronged approach to this. One is to work on changing his feelings about other dogs and people. The other is to teach him a task he can perform when you need him to be calm.

A tangent here. In training, there is something called the three D's: Distance, Distraction, Duration. I'd assume Loki can hold it together when he catches a three second glimpse of a dog quietly walking a quarter mile away. All three Ds are favorable in that scenario: the dog is far away, the dog isn't doing anything interesting, and the dog disappears from view before Loki can get worked up. Any time you increase the difficulty of one of the D's, it's likely you will need to decrease the difficulty of at least one of the others.

There is also something called trigger stacking. What that means is that stress builds up each time a dog is exposed to a trigger. It's actually biological; things like cortisol and adrenaline get secreted in response to the trigger. These hormones take a while to dissipate, hours or even days. So perhaps Loki sees a strange dog in the morning. He stiffens but doesn't react. Then he sees a second strange dog. This time he has a screaming meltdown. The second dog didn't do anything different than the first dog. The difference is in Loki; he saw the second dog when he was already on edge from the first dog. And, having had the screaming meltdown, he may stay keyed up for the rest of the day or even into the next day. It's the stress hormones messing with his brain. He can't help it.

Back to barking and lunging. While you are working on this, try to avoid putting him in situations where he is rehearsing the aggressive posturing. Start by figuring out roughly how close the other dog or person can be before Loki starts reacting. It's quite likely that a barking dog or squealing running child (high distraction) needs to be further away than a quiet dog or human. He might need more distance if he's already been exposed to another trigger that day. Do your best to keep triggers outside Loki's reaction zone. That may mean you turn around and walk a different route. If he's already dealt with a lot of triggers, especially if he's had a meltdown, it might mean you forgo the walk and just sniff around in your own yard.

At home, and then on walks, teach him a couple of games he can play with you. I'm a huge fan of teaching Touch. Once he masters the basics of Touch, you can then use it to move him into positions around your body. You can teach him to come to your left heel, to your right heel, to get behind you, and to face you. It's a great way to get some fun clicker training in.

Once he is somewhat solid on Touch, Heel, Behind, and Face at home, try going out to a park or someplace where you will see people or dogs in the distance. When you see him looking, before he stiffens and much before he starts barking, whisper his name and give him a treat. He will probably eat his treat and start looking at the Big Scary again. Hopefully he glances back at you. The moment he does, give him another treat. Just sit there watching things and giving him treats while he remains quiet. You're quiet and calm, the Big Scary isn't doing anything weird, it's just a nice day in the park with lots of treats. If he starts to stiffen, ask for a Touch. Then ask him to move to the side of your body opposite the Big Scary. You are now body blocking him from the Big Scary. That should take some of the pressure off him. He doesn't need to worry about defending himself, because you are dealing with things. If he's still nervous, refusing to eat treats, or vocalizing, put the treats away and tell him Let's Go. Move away from the Big Scary until he feels safe again.
Lots of cool advice here. Will definitely add these in! On the food thing he now sits and watches while I prepare his breakfast and stays seated until I put it down and give him the break command.

Last week we had great progress with using his dog bed as his "spot". His crate is his "bed". All week anytime we expected a delivery or a visitor right before for they showed up we asked him to lay down on his spot (treat) and stay. If he got up led him back and repeat until we could open the door with no barking or leaving the stay. Once task was done "break" followed by treat. By the end of the week he can complete this routine first try and has been significantly calmer.

I think more structure is helping and adding your ideas sounds great
 
#14 ·
About cat chasing, this is another situation where you want to avoid letting him rehearse the behavior. Cat chasing is self reinforcing behavior. In other words, the dog keeps doing it because it's fun.

The behavior of the cat contributes a lot to your ability to train your puppy not to chase. A cat which holds its ground and doesn't run is boring. Pups can't chase a cat that isn't moving. The pup may pester the cat to try to get it to run, and that's definitely a point where you need to intervene. Perches and getaway spots are all good, but the dog still needs to be stopped from initiating a chase. If your cat is skittish, you'll need to intervene as soon as Loki even looks at it.

Call Loki away and have a quick training game session. Loki wants to play; that's why he's pestering the cat. Loki's reward for not playing with the cat is getting to play with you instead.

Here are some screen captures I took of puppy Galen being a jerk, and the dog savvy Greedy Cat escalating his warnings.

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Greedy Cat attempts to defuse the situation by walking away. Note he has his tail up. He's confident; he's not fleeing.


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Galen starts trying to pester him to play. Greedy is not happy, obvious from the crouch and the lowered tail.


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Greedy stops moving and goes into full crouch. A less savvy cat would have fled, rewarding Galen with a chase. Greedy is both brave and experienced. He knows not to run. Galen rudely stands over him, trying to provoke him to run or play. This encounter has now gone on too long; I should have stopped things here.

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Greedy has finally had enough and applies a murder mitt to Galen's snout. At this point I took Galen outside to play, and Greedy went off to the bedroom for a nap.

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A year later, after many more redirected encounters and a few more applications of the murder mitts, Galen has learned to just chill when the cat is around.
 
#16 ·
Something else you might want to try is taking him to a beginner obedience\manners class, and follow up with intermediate. The idea is to get him used to focusing, and you to learn to head off his tantrums, in a situation with contolled distractions. The skills - sitting, heeling, etc- are good, but the focus on you is really the goal. It's ok if he's not a star at first, as long as he's making progress. He doesn't need to come out of class with a perfect heel. That's not why you are there. It's even fine if you repeat the class just to get him more exposure to working around different dogs and people.

Choose a class that uses positive methods, ideally clicker training. Avoid anyone that advertises themselves as a balanced trainer, or anyone that advertises they teach dogs how to wear e-collars. Loki has had enough punishment already in his short life. Also, avoid classes in multi-use environments like Petsmart; you need a larger and more controlled training space. He needs the mental and physical space to build his confidence and focus.

Here is my reactive boy, Ritter, practicing calmness in a class. I was sitting cross-legged on the floor next to him. Other dogs were practicing off leash work on the other side of the barriers; he could see and hear them running past. I gave him a treat every time he put his chin on the floor or touched my foot with his snout. I also gave him a treat every time a dog ran past. It didn't happen immediately, but these calmness drills have made a huge difference in his ability to function in public. He now has a habit of dropping his head on the floor instead of looking around for things to get upset about. When another dog makes a scene he quickly looks away, back towards me, in expectation of a treat.

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