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Old 10-08-2019, 07:02 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MaizieFrosty View Post
PB, no one thinks you are cruel or hateful! Some just believe the practice of docking to be cruel. Some go off of articles, some go by word of mouth, and as I said, I go off of numerous YouTube videos I've watched of puppies screaming and squeaking in pain.
Since I hadn't seen what you've seen, I did a search for "painful tail docking" on YouTube. Indeed there are some heinous methods people have used to dock like using rubber bands to cut the blood flow, and cleanliness is questionable.

A common mistake is cutting the tail straight across instead of at a slight angle so the skin won't be too tight around the bone when it heals. That's like a male infant circumcision that doesn't leave enough skin so that when the male part changes size, the skin is pulled too tight and is uncomfortable. In a 2 to 5 day old poodle pup that's only had 1/4 or 1/3 of it's tail docked, a dissolvable stitch can be done at the end of the tail.

I do believe that Johanna and skilled breeders can do this correctly, but after seeing only two videos of the botched jobs by idiot DIY tail dockers skimping on paying a vet do it and/or doing it later than 5 days, I shudder for those pups. It also appeared that very short tail docks by the DIY crowd like in boxers have a greater risk of something going wrong, probably b/c it's so close to the forming bones.

It's easier to understand now that views on tail docking are divided. I wondered what legislation already exists by state, and it appears a lot of thought has already gone into this. Here's the link to the AVMA State Summary Report:

State Laws Governing Elective Surgical Procedures
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:56 AM   #42 (permalink)
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PB, no one thinks you are cruel or hateful! Some just believe the practice of docking to be cruel. Some go off of articles, some go by word of mouth, and as I said, I go off of numerous YouTube videos I've watched of puppies screaming and squeaking in pain.

Is there evidence that they're screaming and squeaking because they're in pain?

They are not physiologically able to perceive pain until 14 days old as far as medical science shows.

You do know that animals and human babies cry for other reasons besides pain. How about what the studies suggest?

Did you read that study I linked? I read it word for word. I read another one but didn't post it because it's similar.

I think if you and others who worry about docking would do some reading or research, they'd feel a lot better about this and wouldn't refer to the procedure as mutilation, cruel or any other horrifying adjective. That's a big stretch....at least when it's done correctly. And these ghastly descriptions imply that people who don't observe any cruelty or pain in the procedure must not have compassion for animals. One can not exist without the other so that inference can hardly be avoided.

Now, when they talk about those laws that Vita posted, they mention cattle and other animals. Those animals are not the same neurologically as canine puppies. They do develop the ability to perceive pain and have their other sensory perceptions developed early on because of the fact that they're animals that get up very soon after birth and walk, run soon after that. They need that right away. This is all part of evolution. Canines do not have all of their sensory connections finished until days, weeks after birth.

If it is true that they've seen pain and suffering in dogs later...after they develop the neuron-to-brain connection, then that is terrible. I just haven't seen it and I've seen and had plenty of association with an awful lot of dogs with docked tails and owned a few of them.

I firmly believe that often there's more to it than what we observe with no understanding of what may really be going on. And you can't get that without good research and if it's a good scientifically carried out study, that is part of the research. Science isn't everything. They aren't always right, as we see often. But it's the best we have.

Youtube videos are not science. They can be doctored, they can be taken of people doing things incorrectly. They can be designed to elicit emotions rather than look at the physiological workings or the anatomy of a canine neonate. They can be biased and designed to play on emotions to build a legal agenda.

Running off of emotions... and believe me, due to our convergent evolution with dogs and our innate and instinctive desire and need to protect our young, even the young of another species, (why we breed many breeds to retain their neonatal appearance through adulthood) we can misinterpret things we see and jump to the conclusion that we're seeing a puppy in pain. But what other factor or factors might be present? Might the puppy be screaming because he's been taken away from the warmth of his mother and the ability to suckle, a very strong survival instinct? They've done numerous systematic tests with this and observed and tracked their findings. Maybe reading a study or two is too much for some, as they tend to be somewhat long...it's easier to leap over scientific method and come to rest comfortably on a conclusion based on emotions, something even a lot of vets get sucked into. I totally get that and understand.

If it is shown to be otherwise, I'd be on the front lines, rallying against causing misery to an animal. I just simply don't see that. And I trust both my poodle breeder, the many poodle people I associated with in the poodle club and my Doberman breeder and those people. The two docked breeds I've owned and been around had no lasting problems and their breeders weren't liars or in denial. They were very experienced and trusted breeders by many. Some members here have described their experience when this procedure was done. People can rest assured this doesn't create pain and suffering in 3 day old puppies.

I luv ya gf with all my heart but it would be a good thing to try not to let emotions be the end all...Keep on going and looking into it. Maybe you're right and the whole medical thing is wrong. Then you can make me eat my hat. Or is it my shoe?
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Old 10-09-2019, 07:45 AM   #43 (permalink)
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PB, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that those puppies in the videos I watched were in pain. No, I don't have time to read all of the scientific stuff. I'm using Occam's razor.

ETA: Have you ever seen a snake eat a live pinky rat or mouse? Those baby rodents are between newborn and a week old, and when they're handled, they don't make a peep. When a snake bites down on them, they scream. You don't think that's pain?

I honestly can't believe anyone would believe that puppies (or rodents) don't feel pain in the first days and weeks, just because they are not as developed as a farm animal or human. That just doesn't make any sense to my mind.

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Old 10-09-2019, 08:04 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Okay...well, on that point, we'll just have to move along and forget it.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:08 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:06 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Thailand/London View Post
the litter is due in a few weeks and mom is known for having small litters only
1-3 puppies. Iím first pick of the litter the other person waiting doesnít mind either way. Iíll know which is my puppy in the first 2 or 3 weeks.
So is your breeder not doing conformation evaluations and temperament testing? Which are done around 7 weeks for temperament testing and at various stages for conformation? My breeder picks puppies for prospective owners based on what they plan to do with their dogs based on those tests and we don't know what puppy we are getting until after they are done.....
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:29 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I like the docked tail. I guess it is preference. either way its a poodle
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Old 10-11-2019, 12:11 AM   #48 (permalink)
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I bred rats for several years. They actually DO protest vocally when taken away from their mother. Whether I'd hold it in my hand or set it down to get a picture/pictures, those babies would wail!

All the puppies I witnessed getting their tails docked, well, they started complaining (verbally) the second the vet picked them up. Did they scream out when the tail was docked? No. Within 3 seconds they were back with mom, suckling, and all were quiet. The pups I've witnessed were done at approximately 68-70 hours old. They really do not perceive pain at that time. I agree with PoodleBeguiled... too many people run on emotions about things like this, and because the puppy is whimpering, think it is feeling pain. It is the absence of their mother they are objecting to. If they felt pain, they would feel it much longer than the 3 seconds it takes to put them back on mom.

Now, would I have a puppy's ear cropped? NEVER! That is surgery, and it causes real pain after surgery.. Infections can happen, the tape on the ears can cut into the skin, also causing an infection.

I would think a bee sting on my arm is way more painful than a 70 hour old pup getting its tail docked. Quit watching YouTube videos and read the studies. I think you'll be surprised.
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:29 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I bred rats as well, JoJo. I bred for temperament, and mine never complained when being removed from the mother.

Why don’t you watch some of those videos that I’m talking about on YouTube? Why don’t you see the puppies that are totally fine until they get one of their pieces chopped off?
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Old 10-11-2019, 09:36 AM   #50 (permalink)
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I'm late to this discussion and haven't read the entire thread, but I'm wondering how many of the people who are against tail docking because of the pain caused had (or would have had, if they'd had boys) their infant sons circumcised. (I also prefer the look of a docked tail, if anyone is counting.)
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