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how to gain obedience from my dog when outside (long post)

3K views 12 replies 9 participants last post by  Milliekins 
#1 ·
Hey guys! I'm hoping for some advice from all you more experienced poodle owners really. Millie is my first dog, we've only had her since she was 7months old (she's a rescue dog) and she's now 9 and a half months. When we got her she didn't seem to know any commands at all, not even 'sit'. She wasn't interested in toys as she didn't know what they were and fought against the lead. She loves people so I don't think she was treated badly however I get the impression they didn't really give time to train her or play with her, and maybe even walk her.

Training indoors is going well, she's more than happy to learn things for food! She now knows "sit", "high five", "down", "go to sleep" (lies on her side), "rollover", then she can get back up to "sit", back up to "stand", and "jump". We're working on stay - she's okay if I stay in sight! She also knows "dinner", "biscuit", "look", "find", "come here", "drop it". I may have forgotten some! We're working on heel with and without the lead.

However outside it's like she chooses to be deaf. She loves being outside and finds it very exciting exploring everywhere. She often stops to smell things, but mainly it's a big hunt for food - she loves finding food that people have dropped. She doesn't listen to any commands unless she feels like it. Most often there's something else more interesting than her ball (which she will fetch endlessly indoors) she runs off sniffing and finding scraps and she certainly isn't interested in coming back if she sees some food or another dog to play with. She's very confident and doesn't mind running quite a way from me. She ran out of sight last week and when I caught her up she had sat down waiting for me, not headed back to find me. She's also not so bothered about food outdoors, I can offer her a treat for listening to me but she just turns away and trots off to explore something else!

Walking on the lead she often ignores me too. She may make a couple attempts at walking to heel and getting rewarded before deciding that it's more interesting to go sniffing at something off to one side. On the extending lead in open spaces she tries to pull me her way rather than following me or listening when I say "this way". However she does have her moments when she listens instantly so I don't have any doubt that she understands what I'm asking of her!

I'm not sure if is due to her age as she is just over 9months and I've heard this is like a teenage phase for dogs where they can be stubborn and decide not to listen, or if it's due to maybe the fact she didn't get to explore much before she came to us? Or if it's even to do with the way I've been doing training and the fact I've done lots of training indoors but probably not as much outside?

Any advice on how to get her to listen outside? I know we've not really had her a long time yet - only two and a half months - but she absolutely loves playing off the lead and I really want to get this sorted as soon as possible so that she can have fun and get exercise while also being safe and under reasonable control!

We have got a dog training book but not sure what to do when she's not bothered about her toy or food or praise etc outside! I have also thought about dog training classes for her but she has absolutely no attention for me when there's another dog in sight so I think that would potentially be very frustrating!

Sorry this is so long and thanks for reading :smile:
 
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#2 ·
She sounds a very typical, very loving, very nice adolescent poodle who had very little training as a pup! You do have lots of positives to work with - she loves people and dogs and is not fearful of them, which is a huge bonus. She is learning - after just a few weeks - to listen to you at home where life is not too distracting. She is able to listen to you briefly even when out in the big, wonderful, amazing world, full of sights and smells and excitement, which is something many adolescent dogs struggle with, even when they have had lots of training.

Dog trainers talk about the three Ds - Distance, Duration and Distraction. To take an example, when teaching a dog to come, you would start at home, in a very familiar environment with minimal distractions, ask the dog to wait, and then call the dog to you from just a few yards away. Gradually you would build up the distance, until you were right at the other end of the hall or yard. Then you would start again, asking the dog to wait a little longer, and calling from a few yards away, gradually increasing the duration of the Wait, and then the duration and the Distance. Only when the dog responds every time in a boring environment would gradually introduce more and more distractions - small ones at first, and then taking the training on the road and working around other dogs and people. Each time you add in a D, you go back to basics on those the dog has already worked through.

I think you would find it very useful to take her to a training class, where she can learn to concentrate on you in a room full of other people and dogs - take care when choosing a class, as not all classes and trainers are equal! I would look for a class using only reward based methods, and ask if you can observe before booking, to be sure you are happy with the set up.

In the meantime I would have her on a long line, and practice lots and lots of recalls, sending her back off to play each time. If she is not interested in the treats you have, experiment a bit to find something she really loves - chicken usually works, or liver cake, or smelly cheese - it only needs to be a taste, and being sent back to play is a big reward as well.

Good luck - she sounds lovely and I am sure she will learn to cooperate with you very quickly.
 
#3 ·
You are starting off really well by training her commands first inside, but then you are moving right into too distracting an enviroment right away. Dogs do not generalize well so a dog that knows sit in the living room has no idea what sit is at the bus stop unless you teach sit at the bus stop just like you taught it in the living room. The belief is that the dog needs to be taught the command in three differnt places (not 3 places in your house, lol) before they really understand what the cue means.

Also you are taking her where there is food and good stuff to sniff, what would work much better is doing your outside training in a very boring place first, then as you see she understands and obeys your cues, then add one small (very small) distraction and party with her big time when she pays attention to you not the distraction. After many sucessful attempts then slowly over time add more bigger distractions.

Also remember she is still a puppy, puppies have short attention spans and little self control. So keep your training sessions short and end on success and always postive.
 
#4 ·
In my personal opinion she has too much freedom. Just like a new puppy she needs to be under constant supervision and on a short lead outside until she has mastered her commands then working up to a longer lead. Sounds like she needs more work with distractions, which can be difficult and frustrating for both owner and the dog. I believe that you have a double whammy, so to speak, right now. You have a teenager and a dog that had little to no training before you got her. To be honest she has made excellent progress in the short two months that you have had her. In my experience people who surrender dogs are rarely completely honest about what type of situation the dog came from.

It sounds like she might be worried about where her next meal is going to come from. She might be used to having to find her own food so when she is hungry she looks for it on her own rather than depending on you to provide it. Although some dogs are food fiends, like two of mine, there might be more going on with her. I have had re-homes who were not fed enough due to the owners having limited money, which is why they re-homed them. I honestly believe, those two really worried about being hungry again and it took lots of time, patience, and constancy for them to realize that they would not go hungry again. Even now, a year after being in our home, they will sometimes be on the hunt for food. I’m not sure if that behavior will ever go away fully.

Ignoring treats could be you just haven’t found her caviar yet lol. I use boiled chicken or beef and have yet to have a dog refuse. Of course that will depend on your dog and if she has allergies or not. Keep trying until you find the treat that is irresistible to her. She could be more motivated by toys and that is an option as well.

I would get her into classes for two reasons. It provides a lot of distractions and it is really hard to give advice on certain behaviors over the internet when the behavior is not directly observable.

Hang in there and remember you have made a lot of progress with her in a short amount of time!
 
#5 ·
I call Kai my 10 month old spoo and avid explorer :D He is SO smart yet so spolied in his own right to where he likes to pick and chose his activity. And when he is outside he is at his weakest! Some will say a strong solid "come" recall does not happen until they are fully mature??? I am sure this varies ;)

Kai has completed obedience classes but the real work for me is creating a consistent plan at home. A couple things I am currently doing is taking Kai before and after his walk into the back yard and training on his 6 ft lead to come, heel, stay & wait for maybe 5-10 minutes. (things he accomplished in group class but needs to improve greatly on) I am using treats and the lead together this way I can "control" how far he will go.

I am noticing that AFTER the walk I get the most acheived results from him, I chose doing both because I want the results to be similar no matter when we are out or where we are. Like you said safety and obedience are so important.... and make life better for humans and dog!

I also used a 25ft lead (sometimes) in the evenings when he goes out to potty so I can gurantee we are on the same page that he has to return when I call. (Or else I call Kai 25 times and then do the chase in the yard :D) Again he has a mind of his own, but then I know he is still young.

It sounds to me you have a good plan and a great puppy and considering things he seems on the right track! Good for you and a first time dog owner.
 
#6 ·
You wouldn't send your 7th grade child out to with no prep to take a college-level calculus test and expect her to do well; the same applies to your poodle teenager.

Training inside, with familiar surroundings and minimal distractions, is a whole 'nother thing from training outside, with the big wide world to look at, to smell, and (in your case) to taste :smile:. I have some of the same challenges, as our next-door park is frequented by teenagers with a taste for fast food and a disinclination to put their rubbish in the bin. It's a constant work in progress to keep our reliable recall!

I'd first invest in a very long, very light line. Nylon doesn't work very well, as it tangles. I have a very long (10 meters) line that I had a climbing guy make for me out of thin, slippery climbing rope. White, so I can see it in the grass.

Next, I'd rephrase your initial question to: "how can I be the most exciting thing for my dog when we are outside?"

Super tasty treats (smelly cheese, liver cake, bits of roasted chicken, bits of fried bacon), squeaky toys in the pocket, a tug toy ready to go, etc. Load yourself up like a Clampett.

You can let the dog run around with the long line (take care if it gets wrapped around a leg), and practice a ton (hundreds) of recalls where you call the dog, treat or brief tug game, and send her straight back out again. When mine was a teenager, I used to aim for 50 recalls in an hour walk. You want the dog to build the habit of bouncing back to you at a run. If the dog doesn't hear you, just step on the end of the long line and wait. Wait a bit, then call her again in a cheery, happy voice. If she doesn't hear you, walk your way up the line to get a bit closer, and call her again. Don't shout, don't chase her down, just engineer the situation so she makes the choice to recall.

There is research on brain function in dogs and cats that shows they really CAN'T hear you when they are on the scent of something interesting. It isn't willful disobedience, she is just so enraptured by the outdoors that she physically can't hear you. The ability to focus in the face of big distractions is a skill she has to build.

It sounds like she is trying hard on the leash walking, but again just overwhelmed with the input. The reward for a 2 second attention burst can be to go smell that fascinating smell. Don't expect constant attention on the lead at her age; again, she needs to build it.

Good luck! She sounds like a lovely, smart, trainable dog.
 
#9 ·
"Poodle Nation": right on again...

Funny, your experience sounds just like my experience with Jack. He's a rescued stray, had only interest in finding something to eat, doesn't play with toys, though he's learning, etc.

The advice above is excellent, and pretty much exactly what I've been doing. I'm getting great results, working Jack farther and farther from me. I've got a recall whistle, just a quick two notes, that gets his attention. If I whistle, he comes, he always gets a treat. We do that a LOT.
Doing agility has helped, too. We've just gotten more 'in tune' with each other over the past 9 months.
Long line leash is a good tool, though cumbersome. But it does let you work the dog against the distractions of scavenging, other dogs, etc.
 
#10 ·
Thanks everyone for all your extremely helpful replies and encouragement :smile: I will definitely keep up lots of training indoors and work up to more training outside without distractions and with tastier treats!

GlennBaxterFamily I think you may well right with her looking for food due to being worried about when she'll get her next meal as she was quite underweight when she came to us. Treats struggle to compete with the leftover fast food scraps she can easily find on any walks locally, but also bread - for some reason Millie loves bread!? I didn't really want her eating wheat, so I don't want to use bread as a training treat though it seems it may work?

I do try to be the most exciting thing on the walk to Millie, but as you've all pointed out there's too many distractions to compete with at the moment and I'm trying to get her to take a big jump from the quiet indoors to a very distracting outdoors. It's not possible to give her all the exercise she needs in "boring" environments so how would be best to handle walks with distractions? Obviously I won't be trying to train in those situations at the moment as we need to build up one stage at a time, but does this mean that I shouldn't give any commands? (I don't want to teach her that she can ignore us if she does hear the commands and chooses not to listen due to distractions). I don’t want these walks to make our training go backwards!

JE-UK, it's very interesting to hear of the research that says dogs actually can't hear when they are distracted by an interesting scent. It's certainly less frustrating that thinking she's always deliberately ignoring me!

With regards to training recall with a long lead, I have been put off as Millie came to us as a really bad lead chewer and I worry she might chew her way to freedom within minutes. She doesn’t normally chew the lead anymore except if she is wanting to play and go crazy on a walk and then she grabs it in her mouth to chew and try to start tug of war. However she still seems to resent the lead if she is restricted over and over again, and if it becomes too much a battle of wills she can sometimes turn and bite on it hard as if to free herself. If this happened on a long lead it could quite easily turn into a game of tug and chase as we have to stop her chewing through it. (She doesn't obey the 'drop it' command when she wants to chew through the lead, though she will drop it at other times if she just wants to play). She also gets tangled really easily as she jumps and prances about a lot when she goes crazy and playful. She can get a short lead tangled around her legs within seconds on a walk by jumping about, so I always thought a long lead would be worse and she would be tied up in knots or potentially hurt herself?

I think some of it is probably just part of the puppy stage, and I sometimes forget she is still a puppy as she's so big! But we’ll also be working hard (and having fun) with the training to try to gradually build up her obedience with distractions.
 
#12 ·
I do try to be the most exciting thing on the walk to Millie, but as you've all pointed out there's too many distractions to compete with at the moment and I'm trying to get her to take a big jump from the quiet indoors to a very distracting outdoors. It's not possible to give her all the exercise she needs in "boring" environments so how would be best to handle walks with distractions? Obviously I won't be trying to train in those situations at the moment as we need to build up one stage at a time, but does this mean that I shouldn't give any commands? (I don't want to teach her that she can ignore us if she does hear the commands and chooses not to listen due to distractions). I don’t want these walks to make our training go backwards!.
Try baby steps. An under-exercised dog creates bigger problems, so clearly you need to keep up with the walks. I (still) use the thing the dog wants to smell as a reward. If I'm out walking and my dog spots an enticing bit of trash or pile of sheep poo or whatever, I recall him FIRST and then send him back to the thing he wants. So the sheep poo becomes part of the reward. It works so well (although it took time to build) that he will now often recall himself when we are out walking, before going to see if there is anything left in the discarded McDonald's bag.

Generally, you should not call the dog unless you know you can enforce it if the dog is, um, disinclined :smile:. You end up like the "Fenton! FENTON!!!!" guy (I SO felt for that man!)

With regards to training recall with a long lead, I have been put off as Millie came to us as a really bad lead chewer and I worry she might chew her way to freedom within minutes. She doesn’t normally chew the lead anymore except if she is wanting to play and go crazy on a walk and then she grabs it in her mouth to chew and try to start tug of war. However she still seems to resent the lead if she is restricted over and over again, and if it becomes too much a battle of wills she can sometimes turn and bite on it hard as if to free herself. If this happened on a long lead it could quite easily turn into a game of tug and chase as we have to stop her chewing through it. (She doesn't obey the 'drop it' command when she wants to chew through the lead, though she will drop it at other times if she just wants to play). She also gets tangled really easily as she jumps and prances about a lot when she goes crazy and playful. She can get a short lead tangled around her legs within seconds on a walk by jumping about, so I always thought a long lead would be worse and she would be tied up in knots or potentially hurt herself?
A long line on a harness is the best combo. Harder to get tangled up and less frustrating for some dogs. And the long lines available in pet stores are pretty rubbish. Slippery rope is the key; climbing rope or yachting rope with a smooth shiny finish is great. It does take some practice to handle it without getting yourself and the dog in a mess; my years of lunging horses helped with that!

Many young dog go through that leash-biting stage; mine certainly did. I could never come up with a good strategy to address it, so just ignored it. He never does it now, except when I encourage him to (we have a special lead for agility, woven fleece/nylon, that is meant to be a tug toy).

And finally, I just noticed you are in the UK. There is a Poodle Training Club for those of us with poodles in the UK. The club sponsors a few training events & competitions throughout the year, and sends out a newsletter. If you are interested, search on Facebook for Poodle Training Club. It's a private group, but if you send a message to Sue, she will add you and send you membership info. It's a fiver a year, so not too expensive!
 
#11 ·
What a great thread! You are not alone. You are clearly working with Millie and that is great. Keep it up.

I am having similar issues with Rosie (6m) from time to time, especially in our front yard. I really think it is all puppy brain. Rosie and I have been working hard on our walks. We walk on a very busy road, so obedience is important for her safety. We heel and sit at every crossing. With the heeling it was slow going at first. Lots of training treats on our walk before her breakfast or dinner. Our baggie of cheese did not last as long as I hoped in the beginning. Now I am spacing the treating out a little more because she understands more. She was distracted by the traffic, or a loud truck, or a bike or another dog or runner. Heeling was short. Don't expect miracles overnight or even in a month. It is a process. Continued exposure and training in that exposure will get you there in time, but you have to be in control so she is successful. At first I kept Rosie’s 6 ft leash pretty short, so she had to heel. Gradually, we worked up to the entire length of the leash being slack. She now waits eagerly for the cheese to fall from the sky. After 2 months, she heels pretty nicely (when she wants to). She still needs reminders every now and then. We are working on her continuing to heel even after she has just been treated. This week I noticed that she has figured out her proper place to sit and she will straighten herself without me saying anything. I also noticed that she no longer obsesses about the bike or runner that just passed us. I was able to keep her in a sit while it passed. She did get up to look behind after it went by, but turned quickly back and began heeling again. Yay! Everything needs to be tweaked and refined, but it is just baby steps. She is so much better today than she was when we first started. She is beginning to understand my expectations better. I am so proud of her progress so far.

Rosie is picky about treats too. Recently, I have had the struggle with Rosie eating worm jerky in between her heeling treats. :eek2: I use a string cheese quartered lengthwise and then cut again into coins. I end up with lots of tiny wedges. Rosie likes those so much that when she sees a spot of white bird poo or a flower petal she wants to stop because she thinks I dropped a treat. :)

Rosie’s has selective hearing when in our large front yard (no danger of cars). She gets interested in a smell or squirrel, or a patch of grass. Sometimes she just wants to keep playing. She has not been coming when called lately, so I put her back on the long line. It just makes it easier for her to be successful in her recall. I do not want to train her in the game of chase the poodle, so I do not chase her any longer. I hate using the long line. It is a pain, but I would rather use it now and have her be successful so I will not need it later.
I can totally relate to you because I am going through the same thing! We are about to start obedience classes and I am wondering if Rosie will be able to handle the distractions. It will be good exposure and we will work through it as a team.

Keep working with Millie. Just remember she is still a puppy. Everything is exciting to her and it is hard to concentrate. Keep control over her leash to help her make the right choices. Be exciting. Keep the training short but frequent. Small steps are ok in a distracting environment. You’ll get there if you don’t give up. You have gotten lots of GREAT advice in the previous posts. :)
 
#13 ·
Thanks again for the replies. All the advice on here has definitely changed my expectations of Millie when out on our walks and I'm noticing the times when she does listen to instructions and seeing it as quite an achievement for her, rather than being frustrated by the moments she's not paying attention! We're still doing lots of training inside and practising recalls (with cheese which she loves!) on our 5m lead outside when she's not too distracted. I plan to look into getting a longer lead for practising recalls but working with what we have for now.

With this new perspective on what I should realistically be expecting from Millie I'm quite proud of her and think she is actually doing well, all things considered. Thanks everyone :smile:
 
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