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Old 03-27-2012, 02:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't know about elsewhere, but in my state it is illegal for a groomer to administer any type of medication—ever. If a dog needs medication/sedation, it must be given by the owner of the dog before an appointment, or by a licensed vet. I wouldn't even give a dog rescue remedy myself, I'd make the owner do it.

Even so, I still ardently advocate sedation be only used for grooming under a vet's direct supervision. I wish the law was revised to include that, but pet safety regulations are always back-burnered until something bad happens.

The dog in question that caused me so much stress 14 years ago was given ten times the proper dose for a dog his size by his idiot of an owner, and it was a type of sedative that should never be used for grooming as it alters a dog's ability to regulate its body temperature—obviously a huge problem when washing and drying (he collapsed while being dried with no heat). I've long since forgotten what kind it was, but I believe it was a sedative she'd been prescribed for his thunderstorm anxiety. And after the vet brought him back literally from being dead and she came back (hours later, you'd think being told her dog was involved in an emergency and was at the vet would be cause for a rush), she had the gall to say, "Oh! Well, he's fine now! Can't you finish his haircut?" I would have backhanded her, had I been close enough, but I just walked into the back while my boss explained to this moron that her dog just survived a freaking miracle and she should be grateful she could take him home to recover. It only shows me that owners cannot be allowed to judge for themselves whether a dog needs to be sedated or not. For all I know this idiot was using her dog's meds herself. Sadly, a lot of pet owners are not nearly as thoughtful and educated as people on this forum.

Dogs can die from sedatives. People die from using them improperly on a regular basis. I just wish people would use their brains and connect these things together.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:38 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tokipoke View Post
Groomers aren't dog trainers, sometimes we don't have time to work through deep-seeded issues, BUT I think all groomers should be patient and have a gentle approach to fearful dogs.
Yes, I agree. It is up to the owner to develop a relationship with the groomer & discuss any issues & the ameliorating steps. It is up to the owner to train the dog & the groomer to support said training
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:46 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Kloliver;: you summed that up so nicely!
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:50 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Ladywolfe:
I'm not a groomer--just a home groomer--but I read your post and shook my head (knowingly). I had the same problem with my rescue stud dog, Merlin! He thrashed, a wild look in his eyes as he tried to back off the table.

Here's what worked for me. I didn't try to groom him for couple of weeks or so but instead just brushed him out daily and focused on our other training. Then, I bought a cordless/quiet clipper, the Wahl Moser Arco SE.

Guess what happened when I finally pulled out those clippers to groom him? He struggled a few times but he allowed me to clip his face. I gave him lots of breaks and lots of chicken.

So, in short, Merlin probably didn't trust me all that much when he first joined the pack and understandably so. His entire life changed overnight. He went from a stud dog essentially living in an outdoor kennel to a pampered house poodle.

He's now my easiest groom and in fact, he loves the attention. So my advice is to give Oliver some time and work on bonding with him. Brush him out daily and introduce him to the clippers in a non-threatening way (set them on the grooming table while you brush him). Run a brush over his face (a soft one) to get him used to the feel, etc.

The natural calming agents are great too--I used Rescue Remedy and another one on my senior rescue MPOO who was scared of clippers too with good results.

Here's my thread and a pic of Merlin with his face shaved:
When the Clippers are 'The Instrument of Doom'
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:18 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladywolfe View Post
Kloliver;: you summed that up so nicely!
Too funny (& ironic as we're debating sedation)

I've had a stubborn migraine for the past coupla & a few hrs ago I went cocktail on it's a$$. 1 tylenol + 1 benadryl + 1 OTC muscle relaxer (What?!? I'm Canadian.) 2 hrs ago, I was wondering if my fingertips wld go completely numb instead of just partially & wondered if I was getting rambly in other posts. Did I just overshare?
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:26 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liljaker View Post
Really was just asking if anyone would sedate a dog brought in to be groomed without the owner knowing about it -- basically. And never would have thought about it if I had not had that conversation with Stacy, my groomer, many years ago -- I just never thought about it, since I only thought about my grooming experiences; but when someone started this thread, I was just curious, that's all.
As far as I know, the owner is always consulted first. After all, they are the ones who have to pay for everything, and sedation isn't necessarily cheap.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liljaker View Post
Really was just asking if anyone would sedate a dog brought in to be groomed without the owner knowing about it -- basically. And never would have thought about it if I had not had that conversation with Stacy, my groomer, many years ago -- I just never thought about it, since I only thought about my grooming experiences; but when someone started this thread, I was just curious, that's all.
I hope groomers wouldn't do anything without consulting the owner first! I always call even if I have to shave down or cut anything (like ears or tail). I'd be pissed if anyone gave my dog food he isn't supposed to have. Yeah, I'm THAT kind of owner! I admire you guys who bring your dogs to the groomers. I'd be so nervous and controlling with it. I'd probably hate me as a client lol. Leroy has never been groomed by anyone else but me. I wonder how he'd act. Probably like a huge butthead!
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:27 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Most groomers, I hope, wont use sedation without asking. Personally I would hate it if someone gave my dog a treat without checking with me first let alone sedation. Muzzling, and handling techniques are a diff story.. As a groomer you learn when and if to stop and send the pet home.. like was said we arent trainers. We simply dont have the time, and pet owners (your avg) wouldnt be willing to and some able to pay us for time to train their dog.. I feel the best trainer is the owner as the dog already has a bond with the dog and has the time to do so.

I find there are at least 3 types of dogs.. Mind you this is under salon conditions with a set time to get the job done as safely as possible.. that does not mean the owner with time and patience cant persevere where a groomer cannot.. The ones you can nicely convince to what needs to be done and positive reinforcement works very well with these. The more spoiled/dominant dog that is going to fight you just because he doenst want it done.. These dogs need a gentle yet firmer hand.. Would benefit from owners working at home with them.. often they struggle at first but realize this person isnt a pushover and lets just get this over with so I can get home and tell those people what to do. These I wish I could take home and train them myself since they can be outstanding dogs to groom under the right leadership lol. No I dont mean you have to be abusive or anything to these guys! And the third the ones that are out for blood.. will stress so much to poo/ pee/ give themselves a bloody nose.. or just mess themselves up trying to fight you.. These cases are sent home and referred to a vet groomer where they can be safely groomed/shaved down.. also rec a trainer to work with them at home.

My coworker adopted a poo/bichon mix that is the number 2.. No one can groom her but me as I am the one she *respects*. Believe me others have tried.. she will bite them, and go into alligator rolls. When she brought the dog in and asked our male groomer to do the face they werent able to do so. We all have restraining devices too. I had them put her on my table.. a helper held her front legs so she would push my had off her face and altho she did fight I was able to do her face. Second time same thing. Third time altho she did struggle but I did not need a helper. I have done her face at least 4 more times since then and she stands like a statue. She mainly needs an ahah for her feet and legs from me. We tested it out with another groomer and she was very bad for him, leaving red marks. They put her on my table and she stood like a statue for her face. SHe did give me some hell for her feet and legs this time but prob cause she was already on a roll with the other groomer.. but did not leave red marks on me. We got thru it. My coworker keeps trying to talk me into taking her.. but I have limited room for more and am saving the spot for my next show dog.. otherwise I prob would take her as I know anyone else even her owner has a very hard time with her. Oh and I always praise and love on her when its over with.

In short there is hope, being the owner you have the time to work thru it. If possible with possitive reinforcement.. just takes time! You have recieved a lot of good advice.. chin up! You'll get thru it!
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:46 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I'm going through the same thing with my rescue poodle. It can be incredibly frustrating and incredibly slow going. She's pretty good about her body now but her face? She's almost worse than when I first got her :( So I definitely understand the temptation to sedate. But I figure that unless she's out 100% she'll still fight and could wind up getting hurt and even more traumatized. And if she's out 100% (even putting aside the dangers) what good is that going to? I'm thinking of hiring a trainer to help me since I feel like I'm just not making progress- and my stress is probably just doubling her stress.

Sorry I can't be more help- but I totally sympathize!
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:36 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I've never done a sedated groom before, but now I work at a vet clinic.. they schedule sedated grooms and I groom them on the operating table WITH a vet monitoring the dog constantly. It's not a pill, they full on gas them. I haven't done one yet, but I'm sure I'll have to, I'm nervous about it!

I'm not sure what to do in your case, I was nervous about how Cairo would act for grooming when I got him, but he just came being good. He used to screech for his feet, but I ignore it and keep doing it. He'll now do it for the first foot, but last time he was literally asleep for the back feet. I actually panicked and poked him thinking he had fainted or something, but sleepy eyes opened as if to say 'Why did you wake me?'
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