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Old 09-04-2010, 10:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I am not a breeder, but I know a breeder of papillons who feeds raw, and definitely prefers her prospective puppy buyers to do the same (pretty unusual amongst toy dog owners!).

Like you, I was uneasy about feeding bones, especially as my excellent vet was uneasy about chicken bones. A lot of research did not turn up a single case of perforation caused by raw bones, though - and if it were at all coommon I am sure the pet food manufacturers would have publicised it very widely. If you are still unhappy about it, sprinkling powdered eggshell (1 shell = 1 teaspoonful = enough for 1 pound of meat) may be a good compromise. I have found that the poos are a bit sticky, but very firm, when I feed this. Same proportions for cooked meat - I do tend to cook liver, etc, as mine make such a mess with it otherwise. Tripe (green tripe, not the bleached tripe sold by butchers) is already balanced for calcium.

I don't know if you have already found this site : DogAware.com: Diet Options for Dogs I found it very helpful.
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Great site, FJM! The past 15 minutes have flown by while I've ready about kibble, raw supplements and liver treats. I've bookmarked it for future reading.
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:05 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by murieics View Post
BigRedPoodle,

Do a lot of people feed a combination of kibble and raw foods? I thought about trying to feed raw this way, but in researching raw diets (I was mainly researching the raw prey model), I found that most people that fed raw were completely against feeding kibble along with the raw diet- they said the combination of the two can cause issues.

[



Also, for those people that feed raw, have you noticed positive effects for your dogs' teeth? I know that seems to be a big benefit of the prey model raw diet- does the same thing hold true for other raw diets?

I feel better that there are so many poodle people (and breeders) that feed their dogs some variety of raw diet- and have such positive results.
I have found that most that feed raw do supplement kibble The kibble that is supplemented is usually a grain free however, such as Taste of the Wild or Origen.. I have been told that feeding the two together can cause issues But so far have not seen this. WE are seeing firmer stools and whiter teeth . As I breed a dog of color , the coat is an issue . I have seen richer color in my dogs coats as well. I feel like these are all signs that I am on the right track. Bones, we grind our chicken in a big grinder..Or chop it up with a cleaver that seems to help . We had a couple here that would swallow them ( Wings) and throw them up Just like another post that I read on here. WE make our own dog cookies and add all the essential things in there . The vitamins that we feed are kick a**... www.nuvet.com/62696 If you would like I can hook you up with my raw food mentor PM me for details ..
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Olie,

Have you had any issues with the prey model? How did your transition period go? I'm not really concerned about the bacteria (I know this is a big issue for some people), but I'm still a little hung up on the bone-in part. I know the bones are an important part of the diet- I am just concerned that they are going to end up puncturing Dixie's intestines along the way.
I feel better that there are so many poodle people (and breeders) that feed their dogs some variety of raw diet- and have such positive results.
No issues with bone at all - they chew and digest RAW bone very well. There are bones that we do not allow them to spend much time on because there not easy to chew and very sharp - beef bones as an example and even knuckle bones we stay close to them when they chew on these, they can damage teeth because they are not as easy to chew as chicken bones.

The transition must be slow - most start with poultry first, backs, necks, wings so they get used to the bone and digestion part. Then after a month or so move onto another protein, say pork, do this for a month then move onto another protein and after a few months and all is well you can move onto the richer part you must have like liver.

Some people that feed kibble and raw - most times its kibble and then raw from time to time. Most die hard Raw feeders say NO kibble mixed with Raw, I agree they DO NOT digest well together at all, for my dogs it came right back up. So if it is done they should be fed 8 hours apart IMO.

If I ever fed kibble it would be Fromm, I trust the feedback from breeders on this and I would have to order it as its not available in this area not even at feed stores.

EDIT to add - in the beginning stages yes you will see stool changes, maybe loose, or if you have to much bone the poo will turn very white fast so you add in more meat - really its pretty easy once you get the swing of it.
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:20 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Here is an excellent site / forum that can help you along the way, I know it did me.

Dog Food Nutrition Forum
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Old 09-05-2010, 07:10 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Poodle Lover
Have you noticed any issues with feeding a mix and match? Do your dogs seem to have any issues with upset tummies going back and forth?
We've had no issues with going back and forth, but each dog, just like a person, is an individual.
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Old 09-05-2010, 08:04 AM   #17 (permalink)
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fjm,

Thanks for the information! I have looked at that website before- it was very helpful. And I haven't been able to find any information/cases where a dog died of or was injured by a bone puncturing the intestines if fed properly either. For some reason, that was actually making me more anxious, because I was thinking "surely there must be at least one case out there where a dog died from a bone..."

bigredpoodle,

I will PM you as soon as I finish this post. My jack russell is currently on Evo red meat- we have been pretty much jumping around between foods for the past month or so- by the end of a five pound bag, she is no longer interested and stops eating. I will look into that vitamin supplement as well- I was hoping to find one that I could add in to the food (I know lots of people think supplements are unnecessary, but the vitamins would make me feel better, even if they aren't necessary ).

Part of the reason I am looking in to the raw diet is that my husband has two catahoulas, one of which has pretty severe food allergies. They've been on natural balance limited ingredients for several years now, and it's working well for the allergies (no more ear infections, firmer stools), but I really would like to get them on a diet that has more meat in it. Because we aren't positive what it is that sets off Wyatt's allergies (I suspect it is grain), we never tried them on any of the better brands (like Orijen, Fromm, and TOTW), as I was worried that some of the veggies in them might cause him problems.

Olie,
Thanks for the information. I know that we have to start slowly, and I had read that you must be careful with bigger bones and with bones from bigger animals. I was thinking to feed only chicken bone-in, and feed meat from other animals as the second meal (without bones). The only other animals I was thinking would be ok to feed with bones were goose, duck, and rabbit. I figured everything else we would feed without bones.

As far as fish go, are freshwater fish ok? We live in Texas, and my husband (and his friends) hunt and fish a lot. I would have access to quite a bit of catfish, bass, and perch to feed the dogs as far as fish go- but I don't know how high any of those are in omegas. Do you feed fish with bones in them as well, or do you take the bones out? Fish bones seem like they are particularly sharp and poky to me. Even my husband, who thinks this is a wonderful idea (including the chicken bones), got instantly hesitant over the idea of feeding fish bones.

I have looked at the forum that you mentioned as well- it has tons of helpful information. I thought about asking my questions there, but everyone was just so gung-ho on raw feeding (and specifically on pmr), that I was concerned about asking any questions regarding kibble (or anything else, really). I felt like everyone here would have plenty of information for me- but would be much more open minded and willing to help.



I have been doing tons and tons of research into the raw diets, and this wouldn't be my first foray into making my own diet for my animals (my two horses are both on a non-processed diet- they eat hay, beet pulp, flaxseed, and a vitamin/mineral supplement)- and both look amazing and have the softest shiniest coats imaginable. I also have a book that spells out everything the horses need (vitamin and mineral-wise), and created a spreadsheet so that I could make sure that what I came up with was completely balanced (as far as Ca:K:Mg ratios, protein, etc.).

I haven't been able to find anything that specific for dogs, and it's just always really helpful to talk to other people and see what works for them- there's no point in re-inventing the wheel- and there is just so much information out there!
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Old 09-05-2010, 08:12 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poodle Lover View Post
We've had no issues with going back and forth, but each dog, just like a person, is an individual.

Us too, we switch back and forth. We do raw days and kibble days throughout the week.
BUT we NEVER mix the two together. Raw digests faster than kibble since it's what their bodies were made to be eating.

You can also do raw in mornings, kibble for evenings. We do that sometimes too.

You can actually find a breeder who feeds raw and is willing to work/mentor you with your new pup and feeding him/her raw.

Best of luck!
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:35 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I do mix kibble and premade raw together in the same meal. IMO there is no strong scientific evidence showing that it is harmful and I have had no problems with my dogs. Many people will not mix the two, but I highly doubt it matters and I have spoken to others about this. Nature's Variety actually suggests mixing their raw with their kibble in the same meal. I don't think they would risk making that suggestion if they believed something harmful could happen.

Millie eats a few raw medallions when we first wake up and then I usually take her for a walk shortly after and use her kibble as training treats (we are working on healing - she hasn't eaten kibble out of a bowl in a while). She has the most sensitive stomach to dietary changes and I have only seen positive changes in her digestive health since I began mixing raw.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:59 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I did keep Vegas on half raw(morning) and kibble(evening) for about a month or longer after I got him. I had him on ground turkey, chicken wings, turkey necks, chicken liver, beef ribs, tripe.. just things I could find that he might like. He started having serious stomach issues, very runny stool (.. like a poo fountain) with blood in it. I switched him to boiled hamburger and rice to firm his stool up and put him just on kibble to get consistancy, I tried switching him back to raw chicken wings, but his stool went running again.

I think he may just have a chicken allergy, since I tried raw pork ribs and it was fine (and he LOVED it) so I'm going to try and get another deer tag, boyfriend and I, and share a lot of our meat with the dogs.
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