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Old 08-02-2010, 05:22 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Now THERE'S a use for that misbegotten alpha roll!!

Is it just me, or do all of CM's dogs look obedient but super-cautious? I never even see them wag their tails at him. Nor the dogs he trains.
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Old 08-02-2010, 02:50 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I was really a fan of Cesar Millan. Not only was I amazed at how he saved dogs from the needle, he also has a very compelling life story.

I bought in and used his methods on Fozzie and while many of them were very helpful (in particular, his formula that for every hour you can spend with your pet, half should be in a structured walk, 25% in discipline for training and 25% affection--including dog parks and fetch which many others think of as exercise but isn't).

However Fozzie developed a bit of a resource guarding issue with stolen/forbidden objects and people. I tried "claiming the object" with Cesar's methods, just standing there and waiting for fozzie to walk awy. 10 minutes would go by and the dog wouldn't move, he would just get more and more pissed off. we tried "alpha rolling" when he was growling and guarding, which of course scared him more. Finally a few weeks into this, Fozzie started biting because we weren't listening to his signals. We now have a serious issue on our hands. we are working hard with an SF SPCA trained trainer and for now will do no confrontation at all, we are just doing simple exchanges on forbidden objects and removing everything else while we earn his trust back. He literally feared us when we used a certain tone of voice or when we walked up to him in a certain way. We're working hard on it.

I don't know if I will ever forgive myself for being so stupid. I hope Fozzie will, some day. (FWIW, his recall is 100% as of yesterday...he amazes me with his intelligence and obedience).

Anyway...just one more voice to say that Cesar Millan has done a lot of good, but people should heed the warnings on screen: "seek the advice of a professional" --especially with guarding!
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:45 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Meanwhile, everyone is talking about Cesar Milian. What about Victoria Stilwell? Forgive me if she was already discussed.

On walks, there's lots of dogs in houses that would bark like crazy once they see Ted. Those that were in their front yards would try and run up to the gate and bark at Ted, and he would bark in retaliation/defense. I used one of her methods by stopping, keeping quiet, and guiding Ted to continue our walk. Now when those dogs bark at him, he just keeps quiet, ignores them, or gives them a quick "Are you stupid?" look.

Addition: 'It's Me or the Dog' is casting in the New York tri-state area. I'm tempted to put in my name, lol.

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Old 08-02-2010, 06:49 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FozziesMom View Post
I was really a fan of Cesar Millan. Not only was I amazed at how he saved dogs from the needle, he also has a very compelling life story.

I bought in and used his methods on Fozzie and while many of them were very helpful (in particular, his formula that for every hour you can spend with your pet, half should be in a structured walk, 25% in discipline for training and 25% affection--including dog parks and fetch which many others think of as exercise but isn't).
Okay - why would dog parks and fetch not count as exercise? I mean if my dog is running her heart out at the dog park I DEFINITELY think that is exercise...

I understand the need for structured walks, and we go for daily walks, but I do also include dog parks/fetch as an additional part of my dogs' daily exercise...

So why exactly do these not count?
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:11 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Okay - why would dog parks and fetch not count as exercise? I mean if my dog is running her heart out at the dog park I DEFINITELY think that is exercise...

I understand the need for structured walks, and we go for daily walks, but I do also include dog parks/fetch as an additional part of my dogs' daily exercise...

So why exactly do these not count?
((if I'm wrong sorry xD)) but I think she meant some people use it as their dogs ONLY source of exercise

and I have to agree with everyone
in our family being super excited and positive works wonders with our dogs, but we've NEVER had a dog like the ones on his show. Each case is different, and should be assessed properly before picking a particular training style

but personally from a completely entertainment view...I'd rather watch The Dog Whisper than Its me or the dog...only because Cesars accent makes me melt... >.>

"TSST
TSSSST
We must ignore him until he tires himself out
TSSSSSSSSSST"
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:05 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Yes that's what I meant.

I don't like Victoria Stillwell, though I do watch because i learn. She strikes me as a bit condescending, though again some of those owners are...well...stupid.

But who am I to judge? I'm the one with the resource guarder...
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:49 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JE-UK View Post
Now THERE'S a use for that misbegotten alpha roll!!

Is it just me, or do all of CM's dogs look obedient but super-cautious? I never even see them wag their tails at him. Nor the dogs he trains.
I agree, they look shut down. That's what bothers me about CM. He may get results, but I don't think the dogs in his pack are particularly happy. Most of the dogs he helps people with end up obeying but looking miserable while doing so.

CM may do great work with dogs that are otherwise beyond hope. But I wish he would stop giving advice to people with everyday dogs and problems. I felt sick watching him drag that poor dog up and down the stairs who had the fear issue (I think it was a St Bernard?)

IMO CM is all smoke and mirrors when it comes to a lot of things. They may say don't do this at home, but people do anyway, and some of them are creating bigger issues than they had to begin with.

There's one little poodle in the park with some aggression to other dogs. The owner just recently read one of CM's books and is now alpha rolling her every time she growls at another dog. I want to say something but don't feel it's my place so just silently watch. I really hope he doesn't end up with an even more aggressive dog at the end of it, or a dog that turns on him. And don't even get me started on the finger pointing and tsst or whatever it is!

I can't even watch CM as entertainment, as every episode I have seen bothers me. He certainly has made an impact in the world though, so many people bring him up in the park, it's unreal.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:53 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FozziesMom View Post
I don't know if I will ever forgive myself for being so stupid. I hope Fozzie will, some day. (FWIW, his recall is 100% as of yesterday...he amazes me with his intelligence and obedience).

Anyway...just one more voice to say that Cesar Millan has done a lot of good, but people should heed the warnings on screen: "seek the advice of a professional" --especially with guarding!
I hope you do forgive yourself one day! You do the best that you can, and of course hindsight is 20/20.

Back when my family got our first dog, alpha rolling was the way you dealt with dominant dogs. He was a very dominant and tough little puppy. My mom alpha rolled him and he'd fight and scream for many minutes at a time. As he grew and we realised there were better ways to train, he would never willingly roll on his back for us, and would tense up if we had to do it to him for whatever reason. We were talking about his issues over the week-end and my mom said she felt horrible about the alpha rolling she did. As I said to her then, she did the best with what she knew at the time, and now she knows better.
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:59 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cdnjennga View Post
I hope you do forgive yourself one day! You do the best that you can, and of course hindsight is 20/20.

Back when my family got our first dog, alpha rolling was the way you dealt with dominant dogs. He was a very dominant and tough little puppy. My mom alpha rolled him and he'd fight and scream for many minutes at a time. As he grew and we realised there were better ways to train, he would never willingly roll on his back for us, and would tense up if we had to do it to him for whatever reason. We were talking about his issues over the week-end and my mom said she felt horrible about the alpha rolling she did. As I said to her then, she did the best with what she knew at the time, and now she knows better.
I bet she did feel bad! I cannot imagine doing "alpha rolling" at all but only with extreme situations. Often I think what to do if a dog physically threatens me or my dogs on walks.

As some said this method has been around long before CM. I personally never seen him using it but a handful of times on dogs I would not be able to keep in my care.

Again, I dont think he's a quack - I like him and respect much of what he does because much of what he does do, has the WIIFF methods AND positive renforcement. And training owners that in some cases turned their dogs into babies that listen to nothing and he goes to the other side of getting them to understand affection is great, when its REWARDED (WIIFF). And they need to be dog first.

I find it interesting as does the author of this article refer to many of these well know trainers being very similar in their training. VS, I couldn't be in a room with her for 5 minutes, her voice and demeanor make my skin crawl, but she too makes a lot of sence especially dealing with not so smart owners!

Shhh and Alhpa rolls were mentioned a lot in this thread LMAO - but there is such a bigger picture to CM and the mentioned trainers in this article. I have not watched any of them in a while, I am over it. I bore easily. I am ready for something new in dog training TBH.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:29 AM   #40 (permalink)
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My problems with Cesar are this:

He shows too much on his show. which means people watch it- and think they now know how to train a dog. the number of idiots out there 'alpha rolling' dogs drives me nuts.

2- i personally think that on many episodes i have seen a lot of the dog's finally behaving is because the dog is physically exhausted.

i think older episodes are better. I also highly don't trust what he does behind doors after several law suits from injured/hurt/killed dogs and several organizations speaking out against him.


do you need to be the boss in the house? totally. I think positive reinforcement has it's own group who goes too far to the other extreme- of no negative ever. But i don't think the answer is to have hoards of people thinking they need to be 'alpha' rolling dogs around
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