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Old 02-01-2013, 10:08 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Or do you think the bad ones would just lie about testing anyway?
Yes. While these breeders are pushing to sign and mail back the deposit and contract, they will throw potential buyers excuses like:
- the test results are with the co-owners/stud owners
- not posting test results on OFA and/or CERF because they would cost extra money
- not posting test results on OFA and/or CERF because there are bad breeders out there who have stolen their results/pedigrees
- not knowing how to scan or will scan and email to potential buyer as soon as son/husband is home

And then here are breeders who photoshop PRA certificates and alike and fax to potential buyers.

And then there are breeders who would keep telling you: I know my dogs very well. They are all healthy. I know for sure. You just have to trust me.

I'm not saying breeders must post their results on OFA. I know plenty of good breeders that don't post the results of their health tested dogs but they should be open to questions and provide copies of results BEFORE asking buyers to send deposits/signed contract. Health tested and vet checked are different.

Here are how some good breeders handle the health testing results of their breeding stocks.

Desert Reef Standard Poodles - Puppies!
Noriko Poodles - Miniatures
Safranne Poodles, Specializing in Performance Miniature Poodles, Winona, MN
My Dogs - Katcha's Miniature Schnauzers
The girls at Stillmeadow, Cristall & MyAngel
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:37 AM   #132 (permalink)
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So question then, I am still a co-beeder and learning some of the finer details. So when you get health testing done through your veteranarian of choice, does it not automatically get posted with OFA? How does that part work? Does anyone know? I am aware of the tests poodles should get, however as far as posting them anywhere I haven't got a clue :S
Thanks in advance!
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:52 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Ninaspoodles, I think most posters here would agree that conformation showing is not inherently bad and that it is not necessary to show your dog in conformation, but that you should prove your dog and breed to the standard. I haven't seen anyone here who posts something who contradicts it, and I agree with mom24doggies that you've put it beautifully. But one thing I think julietcr and some others were saying earlier is that people are selective in what they breed for. People who only do conformation MAY neglect important poodly characteristics (e.g., affinity for water), while people who breed their poodles for Schutzhund (none do to my knowledge, but I'd love to see it!) may neglect others (e.g., eye shape).

Whatever type of competition you do, you can only be judged within its parameters. Just like they don't judge conformation at agility trials, they don't judge training, drive and athleticism at conformation trials. Someone who breeds to show in conformation is only getting judged on what a judge can tell in the ring: appearance and attitude. (I count structure as part of appearance, as a perfectly sound poodle with the body shape of a golden retriever would NOT be rewarded because it doesn't look poodly).

But that person is not getting judged on whether their poodle is a good water retriever, because they don't have lakes in the conformation ring. And being a good water retriever is about temperament, affinity for water, and focus, as well as proper structure. There is no way for a dog show judge to know whether a poodle is a good water retriever, although that is a part of its history and should be a part of the standard. Therefore, water retrieving is not a trait that is rewarded in the ring. Therefore, it is a trait that MAY not be bred for by people who breed only to show in conformation. So to the extent that breeders do conformation to the EXCLUSION of other types of proving, you could easily end up with a dog that LOOKS like a poodle but doesn't have some other important poodly traits. Someone was remarking earlier how hard it is to find a "birdy" poodle, which is quite sad considering that birds are what poodles were originally bred to retrieve.

This doesn't mean conformation showing is bad, necessarily. Just that, as you say, there are other ways of being a responsible breeder, and it is probably best for a given breed if different breeders are proving their dogs in different ways. (If breeders of English Bulldogs, for example, did ANYTHING athletic with them, they would probably look like the stocky robust exemplars of the early twentieth century rather than the tottering, can't-hardly-breathe versions of today.)
It is a shame that multiple titles have not been encouraged more in the pasr, however you do see it quite often in shows now. Especially with poodles. Friends of mine that also breed standard poodles have therapy dog titles, cgc's, RE's, CDX'S UT CHs... Scent hurdling, agility etc. To be honest, I do not know of one breeder who shows poodles in conformation in AB that does not have dogs with other titles. It is more popular than some would think. Also, as far as the poodle being a bird dog... There are many factors to why they are no longer really bird dogs (though there are still some out there) but that is a whole other interesting issue. Anywho, im off to bed...
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:50 AM   #134 (permalink)
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So question then, I am still a co-beeder and learning some of the finer details. So when you get health testing done through your veteranarian of choice, does it not automatically get posted with OFA? How does that part work? Does anyone know? I am aware of the tests poodles should get, however as far as posting them anywhere I haven't got a clue :S
Thanks in advance!
You pay an additional fee to OFA and you or your vet submits the results to them.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:16 AM   #135 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone would ever argue for a huge amount of inbreeding. Ideally, you want to breed as diversely as possible (for the most part, there are good arguments for careful linebreeding) within the breed. However, keep in mind that with established purebreds, the gene pool is closed. What you have is what you have, unless you want to introduce new genes from a different breed (Google LUA Dalmatians for some interesting reading on that).
I agree that the gene pool is "closed" within a breed, and I hope all breeders know that. I don't agree that "what you have is what you have unless you introduce new genes from a different breed". Introducing new genes from a different breed is a solution but other less drastic solutions exist like outcrossing and outbreeding in the same breed. I am curious to know if breeders here outcross or outbreed and if they do it how and why.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:27 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Guilty as charged! Maybe julietcr is too - maybe that's why she's asking questions!

I think that is also why I find the idea of breeding a more diverse pool of poodles is so intuitively appealing. Because, even though I don't know much about purebred dog genetics, it seems like making the breed MORE inbred - the inevitable result of limiting reproduction to the "elect" - isn't a great idea. But maybe that's not right...?

I definitely think health testing is a good idea, by the way. But I can understand why someone might want to see some studies or data about its effect.
I definitely think health testing is a good idea to but I am concern about health testing being some sort of an "ok" for breeders to continue inbreeding or linebreeding dogs with "carriers" and "clear" results since they will not transmit the specific genetic diseases. If we health test but still inbreed or linebreed it's a complete non sens for me.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:39 AM   #137 (permalink)
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Schnauzerpoodle: Thank you for the helpful info and I LOVE the Safranne site!!!! Sunny's breeder in Canada is encouraging me to do rally/agility with him and his confidence has grown tremendously so I am looking for some weekend training facilities. She is going to give Sunny his own page on her website -- already has one shot I sent her of him jumping a low fence........anyway, their poodles are beautiful so Sunny and I better get training!!!!
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:45 AM   #138 (permalink)
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I definitely think health testing is a good idea to but I am concern about health testing being some sort of an "ok" for breeders to continue inbreeding or linebreeding dogs with "carriers" and "clear" results since they will not transmit the specific genetic diseases. If we health test but still inbreed or linebreed it's a complete non sens for me.
Did you miss my post where I posted my dog who's COI is under 1% 10 gen and 3% 12 gen and who's line is riddles with health issues from untested breeding stock?
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:50 AM   #139 (permalink)
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I agree that the gene pool is "closed" within a breed, and I hope all breeders know that. I don't agree that "what you have is what you have unless you introduce new genes from a different breed". Introducing new genes from a different breed is a solution but other less drastic solutions exist like outcrossing and outbreeding in the same breed. I am curious to know if breeders here outcross or outbreed and if they do it how and why.
I preface this with saying I know bupkis about the subject, but long ago (2009) bookmarked this post in an old thread. It may have some relevance here.

Linebreeding, crossbreeding, inbreeding, ect

Linebreeding gives you more consistency in a litter. It allows you to double up on all the same characteristics for better or for worse. It is a way to firmly set structure, movement and temperament in a line. It was also a way, back before genetic testing, to see if your line carried a problem.

Back in the day, it was very common to closely linebreed dogs (father to daughter, mother to son, brother to sister etc). The Wycliffe kennel was renowned for this and they were extremely successful in setting a specific type. You could look at a dog and say.... that is a Wycliffe dog. Here is a fascinating article about that kennel:

http://www.dogstuff.info/wycliffe_be...armstrong.html

Here is an example of a Wycliffe dogs today and how very tightly linebred her pedigree is: Coronado Standard Poodles

The advantage of the above bitch is that you could then take her and breed her out, but her genes are most likely going to be highly prepotent and you will keep type even with out-crossing.

Today, many buyers have gotten really obsessed with Coefficient of Inbreeding (COI) numbers. In general, a larger breed pool is always better for the long term health of a species (sometimes not true when an inbred quality proves necessary to survival... but I digress...). However, out-crossing is not without its issues.

In poodles, our health issues are wide spread throughout the breeding population so you often introduce health problems that did not previously exist. Out crossing produces mixed physical and temperament results in a litter. Who was it that posted the picture of the grown littermates where one was 27" and one was 24"?

I think a wise course of action for a breeder might be to take a bitch and out-cross to a stud dog who himself is linebred. That way, you have a greater chance of having the characteristics you like come through.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:08 AM   #140 (permalink)
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I preface this with saying I know bupkis about the subject, but long ago (2009) bookmarked this post in an old thread. It may have some relevance here.
Oh wow I made that thread. Look how far we've come! Thanks for posting it, that's a lot of useful information.
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