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Old 04-25-2012, 07:30 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Isn't this a "Double Standard"??

Referring to the post about a "small standard" website. Now we can't MENTION 'Tiny' Toys or 'Teacups' here, but Peppersb is actually going to BREED for 'smaller' standards and has even started a website advertising such and everyone's offering support.

I'm not trying to be a biotch about it, but what's the difference? I have a 'tiny' toy but Heaven Forbid I call him that. And if anyone posts they're looking for a "tiny" toy -- boy do THEY get an earful! But if you're looking for a 'Smaller' Standard -- why, you get ALL kinds of suggestions.

And no, I didn't pay 'an arm and a leg' for Remi. I just chose from a litter whose parents were small.

I just find it kinda unfair is all.

Rant over.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:41 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The way I see the difference is that breeding standards on the smaller end of the acceptable height limits poses no further health risks to the dog specific to its size, where as breeding for smaller sizes in toys specifically is wrought with such risks. I myself have owned a "tiny" toy and health wise she was very high maintainance, as they have proven to be moreso then their slightly larger counterparts (anecdotally at least) time and time again. further, even though you may not have paid extra for your tiny guy, one glance at kijij and the like shows that most people advertizing for the teacups and tinies are absolutely asking much more than one would pay for an AKC reg. poodle, and these dogs are often unregistered.

I'm not agro towards those on either side of the spectrum, this is just my personal view of the difference, and take it with a grain or a heap of salt
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:59 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Remi IS AKC registered

but Probably not the best example of the breed but that's OK cuz I'm not planning on showing him. He doesn't have any health problems so far (knock on wood).

And I'm not looking to start an arguement or anything but nice pleasant answers (like yours kailyn!) are welcome.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Technically the poodle standard states toys should be 'under 10 inches', just like the standard poodle should be 'over 15'. The problem lies in that when you breed for very small dogs, there are many more health issues. On the flip side, there are also more health problems with a very large dog, which is why people who advertise 'royal' standards are also frowned upon.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:03 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I agree with Kailyn. My Eve could be considered a "tiny toy"(didnt pay extra either) and she does have all sorts of health issues lol. I could have bought a few show prospects from the top toy p kennel in the world by now.. seriously! Plus her medical record is about an 1" thick while my 4 yr old mini.. well her record is probably as thick as a 1/8 of a checkbook to give you some perspective.. if that.

Also in Europe there are FOUR sizes of poodle.. the fourth would be technically the large mini small std size that everyone wants here. Many years of healthy conformationally correct breeding there, and some are imported. Many US breeders with OVERSIZED exceptionally correct minis and toys are sold to breeders on the other side of the atlantic because they can be used there and not shown here.

No need to rant:O).
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
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no problem! no arguments from me yes, some are registered and resonably priced as well as seem to have minimal health issues (such as your Remi, and *knock on wood* my mothers 7 year old 5lb girl... she was an unexpected small girl from slightly larger parents). but I do see a lot of the other examples, especially in Vancouver where i'm from, and i think those are the ones that use the tiny and teacup specifications as a term to increase their price. I honestly don't have issues personally with people describing their dogs as such, just for clarity sakes, it when its used as a marketing tool I think that places the negative connotation on it....
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:13 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Money issues aside, my understanding is that deliberate breeding for tiny toys (or "royal" standards, I suppose) poses known health risks associated with those extremes. The only risk in selecting for big minis/small standards is that the dogs might not be competitive in the conformation ring -- there are no additional health risks beyond the many you always have when breeding poodles. Simple as that.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:55 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Also, when reputable show breeders have minis that go over the size limit or standards that are a bit small to do well in the show ring, they don't sell them for more money, those dogs are going to head to pet homes here in the U.S. These breeders are not specifically trying to breed for oversize minis, for example, it's just that many show breeders like their minis to get as close to the 15-inch height limit as possible. When you strive for that it is inevitable that some will go over the limit. Like others have pointed out, there are no health risks associated with a 17 inch mini, it's just not going to be able to show.

You NEVER see reputable toy breeders striving for the smallest toy possible. It's not healthy. Usually those very small toys are spayed or neutered and placed in pet homes because they are not suitable for showing or breeding.

If someone is looking for a toy poodle the first words of advice I will give is to RUN from a breeder who advertises teacups or tiny toys. You can find a very small toy poodle from a reputable breeder because these dogs do appear even when breeders are not striving for a super tiny dog--it just won't have that cutesy moniker.

Finally, unless I misread something, Peppersb is NOT setting out to breed small standard poodles. He is organizing an information website where people can find breeders who tend to breed smaller standard poodles that are well within the conformation breed standard and can and are shown to championships. There is a wide variation in standards since there is no upper height limit. Some breeders prefer larger dogs, some prefer smaller ones, but they are all correct techinically. For a PET owner, however, who is looking for a standard on the smaller side and who is not well-versed in the show world, how would they know which reputable breeders tend to have smaller dogs?
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:43 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Maybe I don't understand but are you actually upset that people don't like you using the terms "tiny toy" and "teacup" to describe your dog? Because to me that has a fairly simple explanation, those are terms used heavily by mills and BYBs so if you go around using those terms for your dog (even if you didn't get him from those sources) people that think your dog is cute & awesome and want one JUST LIKE HIM are going to look for a dog like him using the name you call him. If they don't do tons of research they are going to not get a healthy dog like you did.

This is why I never use the designer dog name for Jewel's mix. When people ask what she is the answer is always, "Poodle mix." If they ask what she's mixed with the answer is, "I'm not 100% sure since she's a rescue but I believe it's shih-tzu."
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:03 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KristaLynn View Post
Maybe I don't understand but are you actually upset that people don't like you using the terms "tiny toy" and "teacup" to describe your dog?

I guess I'm just confused by the "political" correctness of it all. It's frowned on to say I have a "tiny toy" or "teacup Poodle", yet people here are discussing 'oversized Mini's' or 'small Standards' with impunity. If I called Remi a 'Petite Toy' or 'Itty Bitty Toy' would that be more acceptable?
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