Ladyscarletthawk

Our Breed is the poodle. The poodle has 3-4 varieties depending what country you live in. In each country there is a variance in the variety sizes.. For example toys in the US are 10" and under.. while say in the UK they are 11" and under. Which is why NICE oversized toys are sold to UK breeders where they can be of use... And smaller toys can be imported from them as well sice like here there are a variety of sizes in a litter. If you were to breed a toy and a mini you would still have a Poodle..

Now when you breed a litter of Poodles you have to decide.. guess, if I may, what Variety the pups or at least the majority of pups will be. Now if you bred a toy to a toy, a mini to a mini, or std to a std, well it wouldnt take a rocket scientist to figure out what variety you would put on the registration papers lol.

Its when you are breeding the diff varieties together that you must decide which size your pups will turn out to be. If you bred a mini to a toy.. what size would you end up with? Who knows.. hard to tell you could end up with either size.. darn genetics lol. Now lets say you have an oversized toy(or UK toy) and you have a larger mini bitch.. more than likely you will end up with minis.. if you want to show lets just hope they will also LOOK like minis and not just be mini size lol. Why some interbreed the varieties I am not certain, and Im sure they have different reasons for it. But you risk spreading genetic diseases into other varieties that normally wouldnt have them.

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Laura, Eve, and Fergie

3dogs

I disagree with some statements. I find that if the AKC registers ONLY height as the difference between the 3 sizes in the US then that is what one registers the dog as.

My dog I registered as a Mini since she was over 10" or close to that at 4 months so I knew she would be over the TOY catagorey. Her Dam is 10 1/2" & Sire is 12". I think I did the right thing to register her based on her actual size. Glad I did since she is 12" tall, not just slightly over the 10" height limit.

I have tons of clients that say they "bought" a toy & it is huge, not a 10" & under dog.

I doubt there are too many Standards in the US that end up under 15". As for Mini's when one starts to hit 18" then I call that a Standard size.

Ladywolfe

3dogs: This sounds very responsible to me, and helps people to make reliable decisions for future reference. I know a lot of people mentioned that it is very hard for them to track/research sizes within certain lines.

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ArreauStandardPoodle

I am sorry I did not see this sooner and respond. To the best of my knowledge, you can breed a registered mini Poodle to a registered Standard Poodle and register the puppies. The breed is Poodle. I have seen a number of Standard pedigrees lately where if you go back seven or eight generations you see the odd mini pop up. And not always in red Standards. These litters were obviously registered, or there would have been issues ahead and it does not appear there were.

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Minnie

Teacup anything seems to be a term used by BYB that are trying to make profit by breeding very small dogs - often resulting in health issues.

Small toys are definitely out there bred by responsible breeders - my Bella for example is only tiny as she was in a litter of two where the male was extremely large - her parents were both champions in the conformation ring - she was sold to a "pet" home on a spay contract due to her size only. The breeder was very upfront with us on potential health issues. We feel extremely lucky to have her in our lives - she should definitely be marked "fragile - handle with care" even though she thinks she is a big girl.

Small standards do not have the health risks associated with a "teacup" however breeding for anything less than to the standard, improvement in the breed is in my opinion very irresponsible. There are too many animals in shelters or from those litters that are not champion prospects to breed for anything less.

Ladyscarletthawk

There is a cabryn imported dwarf that is producing some beautiful mini get. A dwarf to my understanding is between 11 - 13" at the withers, a toy is 11 & under. This dwarfs sire and dam are toy poodles.. At least for a number of generations. So obviously a very nice oversized toy sold to a mini breeder to produce mini poodles. As I stated you can inter breed the varieties and still have poodles.. Just gotta decide which Variety to label as. In this case an oversized toy to a mini = minis.. With better angulation lol. Of course gotta be more careful of luxating patellas. Oh and all the get I have seen have fallen around the 13" or bigger size, and some are winning in the group ring from the classes. Very nice dogs!


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Laura, Eve, and Fergie

peppersb

Very irresponsible? Really?? The AKC breed standard states that a standard poodle is over 15 inches tall: "Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle." Small standard poodles are definitely within the AKC breed standard even if they are not popular in the AKC show ring. Consistently selecting only those dogs that fall within the roughly 23 to 26 inches that is currently favored in the AKC show ring would unnecessarily limit the gene pool and hurt the long term health of the breed IMO. It is fine if some breeders choose only the 23-26 inch size, but best for the breed if the smaller spoos are not eliminated from the gene pool. The smaller size (18 to 22 inches) is popular with pet owners and they are often good agility or therapy dogs. They are fabulous dogs (or can be if they are properly bred).

There are lots of problems with irresponsible poodle breeding. All breeding dogs (small and average-sized standards alike) should be healthy and health tested. They should have sound temperaments and correct structure. Breeders should not abuse the parent dogs or have more than they can adequately care for (there have been FAR too many cases of that!). The breeder should able to place all of the pups in good homes and provide on-going support for puppy buyers. There are lots of problems with irresponsible breeding, but there is nothing at all wrong with breeding this good and healthy size.

Minnie

Wow... take a big step back and re-read what I wrote.... "Small standards do not have the health risks associated with a "teacup" however breeding for anything less than to the standard, improvement in the breed is in my opinion very irresponsible." Now exactly where did I write that anything about a specific size???? My words exactly - standard - Anyone breeding to less than the AKC recognized standard (in any way size only being one of a huge number of areas) then yes in my opinion it is irresponsible. However I never once made a comment about you - period.

Open comment to all of you that "liked" the post quoted above... I have often commented very positively on your beautiful poodles, loved the pictures, and great advise so many have given. To have this post liked when I never wrote anything that deserves this post just hurts.

Ladywolfe

I think there was just a miscommunication there.

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peppersb

Dear Minnie,

In the context, I understood what you wrote to be a statement against breeding small standards (small standards do not have champion prospects). But I am delighted to know that you are not opposed to breeding small standards. I guess I as Ladywolfe said, it was a miscommunication. Sounds like we are more in agreement than I thought.

My intent in responding was to affirm my belief that breeding small standards is a good thing (if done responsibly). I did not mean to attack you personally and I am very sorry for any hurt that I have caused. I hope that you can forgive me for misunderstanding your comment and I wish you the very best.