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English Saddle Cut and Dog Shows

29K views 63 replies 22 participants last post by  blakeenfan 
#1 ·
All I ever see is the Continental Cut, which I do not find anywhere near as elegant and flattering as the English Saddle. My handle is blakeenfan because my all time favorite show dog is Blakeen Duc de la Terrace, closely followed by Blakeen Eiger and some of the old Bibelot dogs. I'd like to show my (still in the future) Standard in the English Saddle Cut but am worried about him or her being discriminated against. I'd love to hear from any other English Saddle fans out there currently showing in this trim. One other comment: I've noticed that all you ever see at the big shows are black or white poodles. I'm brand new to this breed so forgive my ignorance.
 
#2 ·
I can't speak to showing your poodle in the E.S. trim, but I can agree with you that I love it. I put my girl in a modified version of it a couple of months ago and LOVED it.
http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=1062

Of course I had a moment of insanity at work a while back and decided I would like less hair. Soooo I attempted to try and shorten the overall cut with a gaurd comb and was somehow shocked that I basicly ruined the cut LoL. It was kind of a DUH!! moment. I could have saved it... maybe, but it wasn't worth it. I did this http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=1385 instead.

Of course... now I have enough hair to round off her braceletts, which I did last week, but I no longer have the E.S. on her. All that remains now is the faint impression of where the lines in the back legs were. Oh well :( Maybe I'll put it back in the fall?
 
#3 · (Edited)
Well, I think the ES trim just isnt prefered anymore. It used to be popular many years ago but I have never seen a Poodle in the ES trim at a show yet since 2001.

I personally do NOT like that clip (no offence) but there are a few that like it too. I think having a Poodle in the ES clip amoung the prefered Cont clip would cost you wins, sorry to say.

Also, the black and white Poodle color thing is absolutely true. Black and white are the prefered color's amoung judges. Most newbies (myself) start with black and white dogs and then venture to colored poodles after they have established themselves. Also, most breeders for show will only sell you a black and white dog if your new. If your planning to hire a known pro handler, thats different. New owner handler's, almost always advised to start with black and white.
 
#5 ·
. I think having a Poodle in the ES clip amoung the prefered Cont clip would cost you wins, sorry to say.
Yes this is true , My sister wanted to put Enzo in ES clip when he turns adult but Terry told us he will not win because the judge will think we are hiding something ..... With dog shows its so political you need to really just copy everyone and when you become know that's when you bust out with something different lol.
 
#4 ·
I love the ES clip, but dont like it on standard poodles. Really dont think it suits them. Plenty I have seen in continental look stunning. This is just my opionion and its up to the owner how they want to put their dogs in.

Ive put my minis and toys in ES clip, only some I have done continental.

Edited to say black and whites are easier to show, but a really nice coloured dog shouldnt let you down. More and more I have seen coloured dogs win.
 
#6 ·
The continental is the easiest show clip to maintain hints the reason its so popular in the show ring.

As for color, what wins gets bred and what started winning was blacks and whites. Same goes for any other breed like Pomeranian's, people are shocked when they find out they come in other colors. :lol:

I'm always the one to suggest you be bold and go with what YOU like not what other people think you should like. ;)
 
#7 ·
I know people do not realize many breeds come in more than one color. Like PP said what wins gets bred so colors get bred out ..... Beagles come in many hound colors but you only see tricolor.

My sister is bold so we got a red and reds barely win ( standards)
 
#8 ·
thanks to everyone who answered my earlier question

I know the winning standard at Westminster 1997 was in an EC cut, but I thought her leg puffs were way too huge. I can't imagine a judge thinking a classic 1930s or 40s EC cut was hiding anything: The hair on the legs was beautifully contoured to the body. Once again, look at the Blakeen dogs! Done right, it is stunning and looks good on a standard. I would love to get a bunch of exhibitors to enter a show in EC cuts....

Gotta go...more later
 
#9 ·
Yep, that would be a sight to see. A line up of Poodles in the ES clip.

Color wise, I personally happen to like black and white Poodle so it works out great for me. Ive seen silver's, browns, blues and reds/apricots and I only would have a silver out of those colors. I plan to only breed solids in black, white/cremes and silver one day. I know other color's come up from what's behind the lines but we will have to evaluate that when it happens.

I already have someone talking to me about using Sting to there red female they own in a few yrs. Im personally not interested.

So far the only attractive red dog Ive seen is Enzo. Other's are cute but nothing to whooo about.
 
#11 ·
Thanks Jenn for you kind complements :D yes it is true that most reds are nothing whoo about it took my sister a LONG time to find him. I like Terry's dogs and thats about it , its hard finding nice show ones that are actually red and not apricot. There are a few breeders trying to get quality reds right now.
 
#10 ·
lol, there really is no hiding when your butt is shaved bald is there ? LoL.

I could see how a judge might think to question a dog in an E.S. now that you bring it up. You can do a lot with hair, even if it's short hair. Of course you can adjust a continental too and make things appear different if you need too. A good judge would see right through that, but well as a handler your job is to present the dog to it's best advantage.

I'm curious, even though you dont see many dogs in the E.S. at most shows do they have at least a few at a specailty show or is the trim *that* out of fashion that it really isn't used much at all. I would love to see a few at shows, what a neat picture that would make :)
 
#13 ·
Yes I been there several times , ( I have heard bad info from that breeder) my sister was going to pay for one of her dogs , but as we got more familar with the poodle standard , we decided that her dogs where not what we where looking for. Razz is nice looking and she has a female I like but most of her dogs I would not say are quality enough to show in AKC. She also breeds them oversized IMO who wants a bitch 28inchs at the withers ? She is also the one that says her dogs does not fade ..... let me just stop there lol
 
#16 ·
Wow! This thread is over two years old, LOL!

Anyway, my boy is in English Saddle!

He is freshly cut into pattern in these photos (as in..he was in puppy trim 3 days before these photos!), so the cut does not look nearly as good as it will when he's got more hair. Can't wait to see how he looks in April!
 

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#20 ·
I love both. I am really liking the English Saddle right now because I don't see a lot of it. I too have heard that you need a lot of jacket hair to pull it off and that you cannot be too leggy. Somehow Tiger manages pulls it off being extremely leggy and not having a ton of jacket hair. His handler and crew actually think that, aside from growing some hair to smooth it out and make it less boxy (and to eliminate the tight scissoring on back of thigh left over from puppy cut), he really doesn't need much more hair.

Anyway, I'd love to see the cut on the Westminster standard! Will surely put Tiger to shame, LOL!
 
#27 ·
I can't stand the Poodle Clips in the AKC ring. The AKC & PCA should get rid of them. Spoo's are working hunting dog & therefore should be in a Sporting clip or a HCC which is my favorite without rosettes. I know the AKC & PCA allow the HCC but very few ever show in that clip. I think it would be great to stack a classes with all HCC & go from there. The outragous lengths, spray ups, wigs (some) etc.. get them out of the ring.
 
#32 ·
I'm new here--reviving the ES clip thread with a question

I've just read the threads that showed up in my search for "English saddle clip" (they're a few years old) because I didn't want to start a discussion that had been done to death.

I'm new to poodles and new to conformation, but I'm game to give it a go. In fact, I had the baby out to a whole weekend of UKC shows in September (2012) but was disappointed to find he was the only standard poodle--indeed, the only poodle of any description--on the whole showgrounds. So we got 100 points but with NO competition, which actually felt pretty disappointing. On the other hand, I found exhibitors to be very friendly and generous with advice, and one handler pulled me off the sideline to run one of her "lesser" dogs in best of breed. I had a blast and learned a lot.

So the poodle baby will be a year old in February 2012 and I recently went to the woman who has his sire, an AKC champion, to set my boy's show clip. In UKC, you can show in sporting, continental, or English Saddle. Because someone once asked me how I like my Labradoodle--I thought I'd make it perfectly clear this was a POODLE.

I wanted an English saddle clip, mostly because I don't like the look of the shaved back end. That's a personal preference--don't think I'm throwing mud around at anyone. The groomer said most people look at an English saddle and immediately assume you're hiding something. And the way she set it, it does hide too much, I think. I asked about the length of hair in the middle section of the leg and she said the shorter look went out in the 1920s, even though you can find it in poodle books still in print. However, I LIKE that look.

So I'm not 100% happy with the English saddle as he's currently wearing it, either. I think the hair on the back end is, well, too pouffy. I'd be inclined to take it down to 1/4 inch on the pack AND the leg above the hock. Sort of give him a pair of Speedos versus the formal trousers he's wearing now. After all, his legs have nothing to hide, at least in my opinion.

So, if I do that, what kind of trouble am I setting myself up for? Laughing and finger-pointing? Or will no one notice, since the clip doesn't seem to be all that common? Or will he be appreciated for setting a bold, retro look?

In any event, he's a happy boy, asleep at my feet as I type this, and truly, my biggest worry in the conformation ring is to keep him from mugging the judge in his exuberance to meet his new best friend.

Also, before you ask, I got the boy as a performance prospect and UKC works well for me to get him out and used to a show atmosphere. I'm told AKC conformation is a lot more $$ because finishing a standard poodle is too big a job for an amateur like me. UKC, though, does not allow paid handlers.

Here's his "after" picture, right after his clip was set:
 
#35 ·
Coming from a short-coated breed, I'm having a hard time understanding "balance" after you've cut down the back half of the body. :) However, the look is growing on me and we'll maintain it at least through a show or two. But if I ever get the AKC bug, I guess I'll have to put him in a continental after all.

I don't think I said that he isn't really black, as we all thought he might be. His mother is black but I met his father at the groomer's and he's blue, and a very nice color, I think. The groomer declared that Neely is also a blue. I'll put a link to the picture of his father below. This one's from Google instead of Facebook. Let me know if it doesn't show up for you.

She said that Dustin (Ch. Lyndale Double Delight) is in a German clip after having gone to Grooming Expo. I think I'd enjoy that clip sometime after Neely is through with conformation.

 
#34 ·
mvhplank- did you place in the group ring at all? If so, you may have picked up a competition win there as long as you placed over at least one dog.

And I also like that length (not that I know much about it). When I first got my poodle I figured she would be kept almost nekkid. But you quickly get used to the longer hair, he looks good!
 
#36 ·
My bad--I didn't say it here, but he did not place in group. In UKC, there are a lot of nice gun dog breeds and we were fairly beaten, especially since he was basically out of control and I'm pretty clueless about presenting a dog. But lots of people could tell I was struggling and they--and the judges--gave very helpful advice and encouragement.

Thanks on his behalf for the compliments! I told friends that he stops traffic, literally. I could rob a bank with him and no one would even be able to say what color I was wearing.
 
#41 ·
Save up your money & go to the UKC Premier in Kalamazoo Michigan. I have only been 1x but loved it. Well back a good 18 years & showed my Mixed breeds in Agility & Obed. I have heard it is large & there will be lots of poodles. I will be going, my breeder from Florida, at least 2-3 Poodle breeders here in NC will be going. Then again many of us will be showing in the Multi Color Poodle ring but still you will find solids showing as well. You can see some of the Poodles that were showing at UKC Premier 2012 if you go to the Multi Colored Poodle website. Their recent Newsletter had photos of winning Poodles. Anyway, I will be going to that show but before that I will be going to a show in Virginia & in Hickory NC. Do you know the dates for the PA shows. A bit far for me BUT you never know.
 
#43 ·
... Do you know the dates for the PA shows. A bit far for me BUT you never know.
If I have a windfall, I'll certainly consider Kalamazoo, but I'm a self-employed editor, so income isn't predictable. :(

For you, and for anyone who's a bit closer, here's the show schedule just within an hour or so of Gettysburg. I understand there's also a Total Dog conformation/rally event in Bel Air, MD, on Mother's Day weekend.

  • 3/9/2013-3/10/2013: OTCH (Obedience Training Class of Harrisburg): UKC Conformation. Indoors. (I'm show chairman--our first 4-show weekend!)
  • 4/27/2013-4/28/2013: TNT Canines: UKC Conformation / Total Dog South Mountain Fairgrounds near Biglerville, PA. Conformation indoors, Rally under roof in open pavilions.
  • 7/27/2013-7/28/2013: OTCH: UKC Conformation. Indoors.

There are also UKC Rally/Agility events, but it sounds like you're looking for conformation.

I haven't been paying attention to AKC events, but the breeder and her mom are both into AKC obedience and rally and I'm being "encouraged" to go along to the specialty in Salisbury, MD, in April. ;)
 
#42 ·
Totally forgot to say that in the Shirley Kalstone Poodle book there is a stunning White Spoo in an ESS with a CURLY pack & I so love looking at that picture. I am not a fan of the Continental BUT I love the Scandi & the variations from other countries- the English Puppy, T-Clip etc... So much elegance & flair.
 
#44 ·
Totally forgot to say that in the Shirley Kalstone Poodle book there is a stunning White Spoo in an ESS with a CURLY pack & I so love looking at that picture....
I've got that book! I bought it before I even brought Neely home.

And the groomer did say that the pack is supposed to be curly, so I'm with you on that! Love that Persian lamb look.
 
#50 ·
I'm a poodle newbie too--the pack is area of hair that looks like a pair of shorts in an English Saddle (ES) or English Saddle Clip (ESC). It's the show trim that's an acceptable alternative to the Continental in AKC. UKC also allows these two trims, plus the sporting trim. Just above this answer should be some pictures that illustrate the differences.

The Continental and English Saddle are pretty much the same on the front part of the dog. In the back, though ...

--The Continental has the shaved back end and pom-poms on the hip.
--The English saddle has the pack, which is allowed to be curly, not fluffed and brushed out, thus "curly pack," with fluffy hair in between a shaved band above the hock and a shaved band just above the stifle.
 
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