As much as I would like to start a raw diet for my pup, I don't think I'm ready to take that plunge yet. However, I am very enticed by the dental benefits of RBMs. Would it be ok to feed a kibble based diet with some RBMs thrown in now and then to clean her teeth? How often should I give them? How much at a time? What kind of bones would be good for a 7 month old spoo? She's currently on a lamb and rice kibble, if that makes any difference.
I'm thinking of something small once a day to replace one kibble meal (~1 cup). Would something like a chicken wing be enough for that? What else can I use for this purpose?
What if I only did it a couple times a week? I wouldn't be replacing much of her actual diet then, so it shouldn't unbalance anything.
I'm not sure what bones I want to feed, any suggestions welcome. I was thinking something along the lines of lamb neck, maybe eventually lamb ribs since she's already on a lamb and rice kibble. So I thought she'd probably be ok with that as a protein source?
I honestly don't think there would be any problem with replacing three or four meals a week with a RMB - she may get a bit bunged up from the bone, but a little liver would soon fix that. I find the best tooth cleaning bones are those with lots of stringy ligaments - self flossing! Lamb shank bones work well for my toys, but you will need something bigger for a spoo, of course. Recreational bones - for chewing rather than eating, with just enough sinewy meat to make them interesting - would laso help her teeth and have even less effect on the balance of the diet. Remember to avoid very hard, weight bearing bones - cracked teeth are dangerous and expensive to fix.
I'm no expert by any means, but I think it would be fine. When I got my 6 year old she needed her teeth cleaned and I signed a contract that I would do it within 3 months of purchase. I started her on bully sticks and chicken backs, beef ribs and hooves. She did not need her teeth cleaned and I got a signed say so from the vet to send to the breeder.
I am doing a half raw diet now. I feed her kibbles in the morning and raw in the evening . I give her bones and organ meats about every 3 days. So far she is doing great . I would like to go all raw, but I worry about not getting it right ... so as I continue to educate myself , this is working for me and carley.
Fjm, Isn't the shank considered a weight bearing bone? Wikipedia says it is part of the tibia. Or is it only the top half of the limb that is considered a no-no for dogs? Hmm, what is bigger with lots of ligaments?
Carley's Mom, That's my worry too. I don't even balance my own meals, lol.
Depends on the dog. Will definitely firm up stool so be mindful of that and make sure there isn't any constipation. If it's fairly bone heavy (chicken legs, quarters, turkey necks) I wouldn't supplement more than a couple of times a week.
I agree with the statements about it being more beneficial to add a big, MEATY raw bone as opposed to the bone heavy one with little meat. That said, personally, I wouldn't give a whole lamb or pork raw meaty bone to a kibble fed dog right off the bat because I think you'd be asking for loose stool. I'd let them have just a taste for a few days and keep an eye on stool. Once they are fairly used to the protein, you should be okay. At least that's how I'd do it.
CM, so would it be ok to introduce with say, a chicken drumstick or wing for breakfast one day, and another every couple of days? Would that be too small for an spoo to properly chew on? Or perhaps a segment of meaty lamb neck?
Personally, chicken is always the first raw item that I would like to introduce to a dog. IMO, a chicken wing is definitely too small for a standard poodle. It's also almost all bone.
You might be okay with a drumstick. It depends. A drumstick is probably more correct as far as how much food a moderate size spoo should eat in a meal. A drumstick works great for my poodles. That said, it's also a potential choking hazard for gulpers. A chicken leg quarter or back are less of a choking risk, but a whole leg quarter can equal almost an entire days' worth for a moderately sized standard poodle.
I think that ultimately a meaty lamb neck is a great addition, but like I said above, I always have taken the ultra conservative route when it comes to introducing proteins and avoiding loose stool. Heck, if it were me and I wanted to introduce a lamb neck for the first time, I'd be adding an ounce of boneless lamb meat to their meal for a week before giving the big kahuna. But nobody ever told me to do that. I just tried it and it worked.
The lamb shanks are from young animals, and even then my toy dogs chew the ends, work on getting the marrow out, and leave most of he actual bone. They have a lot of sinews though, which help to clean the teeth. Most of their RMB meals are halved chicken wings, which are just about the only thing small enough!
I started out going to raw the same way. Once every 3 days I would feed a chicken neck (I have a toy). If his stool gets too firm I always have frozen chicken gizzards and hearts on hand and I would give him a little of that. When you start feeding bones keep a closer eye till you know your dogs eating style (I am always close by but no longer feel the need to watch every bite). Swizzle is not a gulper but if your dog is hold the bone and he will learn to chew, not gulp, his bones. It is great you want to do this for your dog and it will do wonders for his teeth.
I feed Pompadour raw and kibble since he had 4 months old, now at two years he is on a 70% raw, the kibble food are mixed wit cooked meat, and he is doing very good.
You just have to be careful to not mix raw and kibble in the same meal, since four what I have read kibble digest in 6 hours and raw in like 3 hours this can help you to plan your meals.
You can give one raw meal at the morning and one kibble meal at night or vice versa.
I think it was Chocolate Millie who encouraged me last year to start feeding meaty bones, and since then, I am giving my two standards pork neck bones once a week or so- I never have any problems feeding these bones, and they certainly help keep their teeth cleaner.
I also never have noticed any ill effects from feeding kibble and raw together, but maybe I don't feed sufficient quantity of raw meat for there to be a problem?
I feed Wellness CORE, with about a 1/4 cup of green tripe,( yuck!!) or ground or minced beef added on when I do feed raw meat, but lesser amounts of liver/heart, etc to forestall loose stools.I am not brave enough ( yet) to feed raw chicken, but I am getting there. I am just so afraid that they will choke!
I must branch out now, because at summer's end, I will, hopefully, be bringing home another puppy, and the breeder( Marion Banta, Parrishill, NJ) feeds strictly raw and I promised Marion that I would try to increase the amount of raw meats in their diet.
So next week I will start on my promise by giving a raw chicken back...shudder
i've been feeding my dogs a mixture of raw and kibble for about 6 weeks now. primarily raw. i found a source where i can purchase ground meat w/ bones so i'm not freaking out on the choking fear i have.
they are all doing well on it and VERY happy when meal time comes.
i'm not sure i'm giving enough organ/heart/tripe mix though. i feed the standards 8 oz a week of it.
From what I have been told its the eating, not the chewing of the bones that truly help the teeth.
I ordered 40 pounds of chicken backs for $22.00 last week. I thought that was pretty good. I am also feeding turkey necks , chicken legs quarters and no salt sardines. Any other suggestions?
I give Carley beef ribs at least once a week for the chewing. I don't let her eat the ribs.
That's good for RMB's. You'll have to see what you get, but many times the chicken backs are "scant". You can alternate days with scant chicken backs with leg quarters. The leg quarters have a little bit more meat than is right, and the chicken backs don't have quite enough meat. Over 2 days, iit will be balanced and the calcium/phosphorus will be perfect.
Don't forget to add some organ meat, and a vitamin source too.
Thanks tort, I consider the backs bone only. I also feed roast beef and chicken breast . I give her the backs about once every weeks. She also get turkey necks that I consider bone only. Is that okay, she gets those every two weeks also so at least once a week a bone meal. I did not know to skin the meat, thanks for that tip.
Why would you skin the meat? I would never suggest skinning the meat unless you are first introducing raw and concerned about keeping things as bland as possible. The skin provides fat, which is important!
Have you seen turkey backs in the grocery store? They are meaty, a good visual for estimating how much meat to put with the bonier chicken backs.
I think you're not feeding enough bone. It should be around 20% of the diet. Chicken leg quarters are usually about 15% bone and chicken backs are usually about 40% bone.
My mini puppy (13 lbs last time I checked) gets 3 chicken necks, about 1/4 cup organ meat, and about 1/3 cup boneless meat, and 600mg high-quality fat/oil -- in the morning
He also gets about 1-1/2 cups of a 50/50 mix of Blue Buffalo kibble and various high-value treats. -- in the afternoon.
tort, it does seem that you are feeding your mini more than I would think she needed. Carley is 50lbs. She gets 1 1/2 c of kibble with canned dog food or canned tripe on top about 1/4 c in the morning and then a evening meal might be 1 lg chicken breast or 1 1/2 c cubed roast beef or 1 chicken quarter or 1 turkey neck ect . I sometimes feed 8oz of sardines with a egg yolk and 1/2 c of tripe as a meal.
CM, tort said she seen a dog die from too much fat in the raw diet. That came from the skin. So I think I will skin mine about half the time.
Yes, he eats a lot!! He is very lean at 13.6 pounds (I weighed him since my last post ). His growth is tapering off now, so his energy needs will go down soon.
Bone should be 10 percent of the diet, I think 20 percent is too high (though could be worse). This is different from raw meaty bones making up 20 percent of the diet, as something like a chicken quarter is ~30% bone (don't quote me on that).
I'm relying on memory which could be wrong. Now that I think about it I'm not completely sure. :/ I'm too sleepy to think straight, but remind me tomorrow to look it up.
In case someone wants to beat me to it, you need the minimum calcium requirement for whatever life stage your dog is in from AAFCO. Then do the chemistry to find out how much calcium is in X amount of bone, then adjust the amount of bone until the calcium is right. Now using the calcium/phosphorus ratio (also from AAFCO) you can estimate the amount of meat and other ingredients, and/or you can go to energy requirements assuming bone has zero calories to get a meat amount and use the calcium/ phosphorus ratio to check.
I feed higher bone because you need to balance out the phosphorus that is in the non-meat part of the meal. The more "extras" you put in there, the more bone. Make sense?
Most recommendations for adults seem to be around 10% bone, 10% offal (of which half should be liver) and the rest muscle meat, including heart. Puppies need rather more of everything!
"Puppies
The nutritional requirements of puppies vary from those of adults, and deficiencies (or excesses) are more likely to cause harm. Puppies need more protein, fat, calcium, and phosphorus than adult dogs do, but too much calcium can lead to serious orthopedic problems. This is especially true for young (prior to puberty), large-breed puppies. These increased needs continue as long as your puppy is growing, and are highest during periods of peak growth.
The exact amount of calcium that puppies require is a matter of endless debate among nutritionists. I’ll outline the most prominent recommendations, and suggest an approach that should result in your home-prepared diet falling into the middle of these ranges.
The 2006 National Research Council (NRC) guidelines recommend that puppies receive 3 grams (3,000 mg) of calcium per 1,000 kcals, which is three times its recommended amount for adult dogs. The minimum requirement is 2,000 mg/1,000 kcals, but they also say that large-breed puppies (anticipated adult weight greater than 55 lbs) should get at least 250 mg calcium per pound of body weight up to the age of 14 weeks.
The nutrient guidelines published by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) express the recommended amount in a different way, suggesting that puppy diets include between 1.0 and 2.5 percent calcium on a dry matter (DM) basis. In comparison, the 2006 NRC recommendations are 0.8 to 1.7 percent for smaller breed puppies (adult body weight under 55 lbs) and 0.8 to 1.2 percent for larger breed puppies (based on a diet that contains 400 kcals per 100 grams of food). "
I'm not sure that you need to put such in depth calculations into it. 80/10/10 is an ideal ratio. The goal is for bone to be 10% of the overall diet, as stated above.
IA....This is key. The easiest way to start Raw (no matter where you start) IMHO is to just stick with slow protein changes with plenty of bone the first 2 weeks of each new protein. Liver shouldn't be introduced until after a 2-3 months into Raw and then the best way is to feed a small amount every few days. It's great to research but too much thought can get confusing quick.
I was a die hard at not feeding veggies the first two years however I do now - some. I still don't believe they offer much value but they are a better substitute for my dogs waisteline versus they high cal proteins.
*I also see no problem substituting and feeding a BONE MEAL a few days a week will help with the teefers too!
*A chicken alergy (w/kibble) many times does not have the same effect when eating Raw.
This is why I am only feeding raw half the time... I just don't know what to believe and fear doing the wrong thing. " Be careful of too much skin, why would you skin, don't feed liver, be sure to feed liver, don't need veggies, feed veggies, give supplements, don't need supplements,feed raw eggs, don't feed raw egg whites, 10%, 20%, 30%... on and on. I know I want to do the very best for my dogs, but I am not sure what that is... I was much more at ease feeding my kids.
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