Hip dyslpasia in Minis OFA vs Pennhip - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!
   

Go Back   Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! > Poodle Forums > Poodle Health

Poodle Health Discuss Poodle health and important health testing for common poodle diseases.

PoodleForum.com is the premier Poodle Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-04-2012, 04:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 16,730, Level: 89 Points: 16,730, Level: 89 Points: 16,730, Level: 89
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Ladyscarletthawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Names of dogs: Eve and Fergie
Poodle Type: Toy and Miniature
Location: MS
Posts: 697
Thanks: 260
Thanked 521 Times in 310 Posts
Default Hip dyslpasia in Minis OFA vs Pennhip

I see there is a lot of info on spoos and hip dysplasia, but not much on minis if any at all. I suppose that the breeding plans would be the same or similar as they would be in spoos. Being a small dog how would your decision be compared to a spoo in regards of breeding. For example, would you breed a mild, borderline, or fair in a mini but not a spoo? I have read that two goods can produce a dysplastic for example.

Which is prefered OFA or Pennhip and why? Have you had any dogs that you tested both OFA and Pennhip, and how diiferent were the findings. I know that Pennhip takes into account the percentile in the breed that the hip results fall in.. kinda like the test we take in school lol. Did the dog test better in one or the other?

Now I have heard that you will/can get a more accurate reading if the dog is not sedated as opposed to sedated. That it is far easier to manipulate the hips to look worse than what they really are.. either on purpose or by lack of experience. Improper positioning can make it look worse than the other. If it is better then how do you find a vet that is willing to do so? Hell how do you have a vet that does a good job at taking the xrays properly. I know they arent going to say no I cant do that well, they are not going to admit to their sloppy positioning etc.

Can an injury affect hip grading and how soon if ever is too soon to get a good reading?

ANY sound info you can offer or experience would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
__________________
Laura, Eve, and Fergie
Ladyscarletthawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-08-2012, 05:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
Member
Points: 1,073, Level: 18 Points: 1,073, Level: 18 Points: 1,073, Level: 18
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ontario
Posts: 85
Thanks: 2
Thanked 63 Times in 39 Posts
Default

OFA and PennHip are looking for two different things.

At 2 years old, a single OFA radiograph is telling you what the current state of the dog is. IS there currently OA or evidence of dysplasia?
- No Then the rating is Excellent
- Mild Then the rating is Good/Fair
- Moderate to Severe than the rating is Poor +

What it doesnt tell you is how likely the dog is to develop future hip issues.

Sedation doesnt matter, because you are not pulling the hips out. They will not look tighter or lax, because thats not what is being measured (you are straightening the legs back, not abducting them)

Breeders often prefer OFA because its easier to get a good rating compared to PennHip, where actual numbers are issued.

OFA doesnt tell you laxity (which is a major cause of dysplasia/OA), where it does with PennHip. With the PennHip series, three radiographs are done. THey are always done under sedation, so you are always comparing apples to apples.

The three views are a normal extended hip (same as OFA). The next view is a compression view, and the third is a distraction view. It is this distraction view that we get the measurements for how "lax" the hip is. Ie. how easily the ball will pull out of the socket. This is measurable, and compared to others within the same breed.

While both studies are better than nothing, I would prefer to get a dog who had parents with both good PennHip scores over a dog with just OFA. However, with Mini's they are not a highly dysplastic dog..I would probably be just fine with OFA ratings.


A PennHip certified veterinarian must be the one performing the PennHip rads. For OFA, anyone can take them.
Samba is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Samba For This Useful Post:
Ladyscarletthawk (11-10-2012), liljaker (11-11-2012)
Old 11-10-2012, 07:03 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 16,730, Level: 89 Points: 16,730, Level: 89 Points: 16,730, Level: 89
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Ladyscarletthawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Names of dogs: Eve and Fergie
Poodle Type: Toy and Miniature
Location: MS
Posts: 697
Thanks: 260
Thanked 521 Times in 310 Posts
Default

So the Pennhip is the more accurate one.. Now can a dog get a dysplastic reading from an injury?

When do dysplastic dogs start to get arthritic? I have heard some dogs get arthritis at a young age. So is the severity of the dysplasia the indicating factor as to when they get arthritic?

Would the size of a dog Std vs Mini have any effect on how you would treat the dog. Excersize, sporting, breeding, etc?
__________________
Laura, Eve, and Fergie
Ladyscarletthawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2012, 05:24 AM   #4 (permalink)
Member
Points: 1,073, Level: 18 Points: 1,073, Level: 18 Points: 1,073, Level: 18
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ontario
Posts: 85
Thanks: 2
Thanked 63 Times in 39 Posts
Default

The PennHip is accurate for measuring laxity, as OFA doesnt measure this. Both read basic hip conformation equally well. If I had to lean one way, I would go PennHip as they do look a little further into the hips with 3 vs. 1 view.

Yes, dogs can get not just a dysplastic reading, but real dysplasia/OA from an injury. However, saying that - if the hip conformation is good, unless there is an acetablular fracture of the pelvis or fracture of the femoral head than the integrity of the bony joint is very likely not going to be an issue. If that joint was jarred around a lot for some reason, you could in time see some arthritis forming - however, with a good hip joint its very unlikely. I guess what Im trying to say is that while arthritis is possible from any injury, it would depend on the type of injury.

The dysplasia is not what hurts the dog, dogs can very happily live with dysplastic hips until the arthritis forms. It the several forms of arthritis as a result from dysplasia that cause discomfort in the joint.

You have hit the nail on the head. It is the severity of the dysplasia that predicts when and whether the pet will become arthritic or not.

Now there are different reasons to do PennHip/OFA/Radiologist Review. If this is a pet, and no plans to breed I would have a VD pelvic radiograph sent to a boarded radiologist for review. This is the cheapest method, and very accurate for current conditions.

For breeders, I personally think PennHip at a young age (before they start their show career) is ideal. If they have bad scores, then you dont waste your money showing them. If their hips are good, then you continue along our pathway of showing and testing for other genetic diseases.

OFA is not official until the dog is 2 years old (and often done their show career). While they do look for hip shape and evicence of arthritis, they do not check for laxity in the same way PennHip does. So often dogs with good radiographic hip comformation but moderately lax hips will pass OFA no problem at 2 years old, however some of these dogs will become arthritic at a later time. This is where PennHip (I believe) is superior.

As far as a mini goes, medically you would treat them the same way. Cosequin & Physio, and moving up to Adequan/Polyglycan, NSAIDs as needed. We have done FHO's on some small dogs, but never any hip replacements.Little dogs are easier to manage for sure, pick them up and carry them around as needed. Exercise is very important. Sporting and agility would be based on their comfort level. I would never breed to a dog, mini or standard with hips in the bottom 50% of PennHip readings. There are 50% out there that are better.

If you are planning on breeding this dog, and you know she has had an injury I would do a step by step process. First, get a VD of the hips (doesnt matter if its sedated or not) for a radiologist review. They will assess the shape of the hip joint. If all is good, then move forward onto PennHip. However, if the radiologist review shows some issues then you know its not likely worth persuing either OFA or PennHip. Radiologist reviews are pretty cheap, often $50 or so for a reading.
Samba is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Samba For This Useful Post:
CT Girl (11-13-2012), Ladyscarletthawk (11-13-2012), liljaker (11-11-2012)
Old 11-13-2012, 12:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 16,730, Level: 89 Points: 16,730, Level: 89 Points: 16,730, Level: 89
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Ladyscarletthawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Names of dogs: Eve and Fergie
Poodle Type: Toy and Miniature
Location: MS
Posts: 697
Thanks: 260
Thanked 521 Times in 310 Posts
Default

You have been very helpful and informative thank you!! What is a VD, and how do I go about inquiring about it without sounding slow? Or at least so they understand what Im asking lol!

How difficult is it to find a vet that will do xrays (OFA) unsedated? Thank you again!!
__________________
Laura, Eve, and Fergie
Ladyscarletthawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 05:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
Member
Points: 1,073, Level: 18 Points: 1,073, Level: 18 Points: 1,073, Level: 18
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ontario
Posts: 85
Thanks: 2
Thanked 63 Times in 39 Posts
Default

A VD view is the standard view for OFA readings. Its pretty much the dog laying on his back, and the person holding the legs down and rotating the knees inwards.

Lots of people will do it awake. I personally dont, I dont like to expose myself to unnesessary radiation (I do too many to be in the room) and mild anti-anxiety medication often makes it a more pleasant and less painful experience for the patient, where I can step back away from them and not worry about them struggling. However, yes, many vets who do not have a busy radiology practice will have their technicians hold the patients in the radiology room and often they can hold the animal down in that position long enough not to require sedation.

You have to wait until the dog is 2 years old to have an official OFA report however. There are prelim readings available for younger dogs, but they are not official.
Samba is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OFA Hip vs PENN Hip Stargazerpoodles Poodle Health 8 06-20-2014 06:30 AM
Pennhip or OFA? CharismaticMillie Poodle Health 10 07-11-2011 12:07 PM
PennHip vs OFA article CelticKitti Poodle Health 6 09-17-2010 12:10 PM
PennHip vs. OFA? poodlepuppygurl Poodle Health 3 07-29-2010 12:06 PM
Breeding decisions: PennHIP vs. OFA thestars Poodle Breeding 2 02-04-2010 05:21 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:56 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
All (C) PoodleForum.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com