What do you think about breeding bigger standards? - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!
   

Go Back   Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! > Poodle Forums > Poodle Health

Poodle Health Discuss Poodle health and important health testing for common poodle diseases.

PoodleForum.com is the premier Poodle Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-07-2012, 11:27 AM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
msminnamouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Ginger (my service dog) and Angel
Poodle Type: Standard, Mini
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 230
Thanked 345 Times in 167 Posts
Default What do you think about breeding bigger standards?

To my best knowledge, most breeders are breeding the standards smaller these days for better joint and hip health. (This may or may not be correct information).

If it IS true or not, what do you guys think about the breeders who are breeding really big and big boned standards?

Are there health problems associated with this? I'm guessing more gravity wearing on the joints can't be great.

What's the purpose in doing this? I realize some people could use them as service dogs for mobility but I don't really understand the point of breeding poodles to be tanks when there are sturdier breeds already out there.
__________________
msminnamouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-07-2012, 12:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 56,658, Level: 100 Points: 56,658, Level: 100 Points: 56,658, Level: 100
Activity: 2.0% Activity: 2.0% Activity: 2.0%
Last Achievements
 
PoodlePowerBC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Names of dogs: Russell Standard Poodle (Rufus RIP) Leonardo Yorkshire Terriorist
Poodle Type: Brown Standard
Location: Abbotsford, BC
Posts: 1,135
Thanks: 1,906
Thanked 1,310 Times in 508 Posts
Default

I have a bigger Standard ...and I love all 70+ lbs of him. We wanted a bigger dog, so looked for a breeder that was breeding larger Standards. But... we are planning on adding another Spoo to our family in the future, and we are discussing a smaller-sized red, because this time we are looking for a medium sized dog. I love Poodles and it's just great that they come in any size a person could want!
__________________

"There is nothing that any breed can add to a poodle to improve it"
PoodlePowerBC is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to PoodlePowerBC For This Useful Post:
Lou (11-30-2012)
Old 01-07-2012, 02:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 5,183, Level: 49 Points: 5,183, Level: 49 Points: 5,183, Level: 49
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 413
Thanks: 203
Thanked 832 Times in 237 Posts
Default

Size discussions tend to get nasty.

What I have found is that poodle people on the whole tend to be extremely judgmental and very intolerant of anything they, themselves don't personally like.

Then the attacks start... okay.. let's see.. there's no such thing as a royal, or a teacup (interesting that in the USA... moyen seems to be turning into an accepted term). Then the finger pointing begins "Oh horrors! Did you see the size of that poodle!!! There just must be something wrong with it! It's different, it's not normal". What I have found is a tremendous amount of health issues through poodles of all sizes... but while the health issues are "acceptable" in average sized poodles, in either very small or very large poodles the health issue is blamed on the size. Occasionally.. the size is the culprit, but rarely. More often genetics are.. and most really big.. and really small poodles have the same genetic background as the rest of the poodles.

As far as breeder's breeding smaller for hip/joint health.. well not many "royals" have LCP. Hip dysplasia is considered to by polygenic with environmental influences. Basically.. it's all marketing and marketing strategies. All though more and more breeders are breeding smaller statured standards, there is still a big demand for them (take a look at the postings on this group from people looking for Klein and Moyen sized poodles). I know someone who used to have standards who decided there was no money in standards.. she switched to mini standard crosses and klein poodles... and has now been through the alphabet (meaning bred more than 26 litters) a few times over. She doesn't work outside the home, she "markets" based on the wonderful temperaments of that sized dog as well as the convinence of the size. Marketing sounds harsh. It is, what it is. She supports herself off of her dogs, doesn't work outside of the home. I see her name come up on this group frequently as a breeder who is "recommended". That's reality. She saw an opportunity to corner a "niche" in breeding.. and did just that. Supply and demand. That demand means money for breeders and most breeders use what whatever they can to promote whatever they are selling. If they can promote smaller dogs as having better temperaments joint and hip health.. well.. who is going to buy a bigger one? On the other hand, if a breeder of larger poodles promotes dogs having the best temperaments and better for hunting.. well??

There are very few actual studies or research available on health issues of different sizes. When someone slams a poodle of a different size, it's usually because it's other than what they have.. .and they may not like it.. but more than likely they really are clueless about the overall health of that poodle. It's almost like discrimination... or being a hater. Don't believe me.. take a look through the archives of this group.

Just as some pet owners prefer small, some prefer large. People, just like poodles weren't all made with the same mold, we are all different, we have different likes and dislikes. If people didn't like different sizes, there would be no demand for them.. and people would quit breeding them. No demand, no puppy sales...no more breeding.

I like a solid poodle, one tall enough that I don't have to bend over to pet them or touch them. I like poodles big enough to help me in my daily tasks. I prefer bone structure, in whatever size, to be heavy enough to support the dog well while the poodle is still light on his feet. That's my personal choice.

I had an eye opening experience a few winters ago. I had a little 21 inch poodle visiting me, deep snow on the ground.. and I ended up on my hands and knees while looking for something. I called out (the normal routine).. and the 21 incher came running to my rescue. Unbelievable. My other poodles were inside. They stand and brace for me, they pick things up for me.. I interact with them so often that having them help me is habit. So.. down on my hands in needs in deep snow.. with a 21 inch tall poodle. What on earth does anyone do with a 21 inch poodle anyone. So.. she licked my face and otherwise encouraged me as I crawled to my porch so that I could stand up. Now I'm sure there are people out there who enjoy their 21 inch poodles...by chance, I do own a 21 inch poodle as well (the 21 inch facelicker, however was returned to her previous home).. however...my larger poodles are the poodles who keep my on my feet. I can't imagine only having a 21 inch poodle. Kinda like having a cap gun in a shootout!

Basically, I guess it's different strokes, for different folks. I have to say that just because a poodle is big as a tank.. does not mean that it is not sturdy. Again.. just like in average sized poodles, some are more structurally correct than others, some are worse than others. I have seen plenty of smaller poodles who were not correct structurally, including some who were limited by their structure.


So.. I guess for a straight forward answer.. people breed poodles of all sizes (of each size?) because that's what other people want. Supply and demand... and pleasure.
Yaddaluvpoodles is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Yaddaluvpoodles For This Useful Post:
ArreauStandardPoodle (01-08-2012), Chagall's mom (01-07-2012), CharismaticMillie (01-07-2012), liljaker (01-07-2012), Lou (11-30-2012), LucyTheComadrita (02-22-2012), nu2poodles (12-07-2012), PoodlePowerBC (01-07-2012)
Old 01-07-2012, 02:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 122,093, Level: 100 Points: 122,093, Level: 100 Points: 122,093, Level: 100
Activity: 5.1% Activity: 5.1% Activity: 5.1%
Last Achievements
 
Fluffyspoos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Names of dogs: Vienna, Vegas, and Cairo
Poodle Type: Standards and toy
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 5,331
Thanks: 1,888
Thanked 3,783 Times in 1,155 Posts
Default

Well, look at the other giant breeds; danes, newfies, bernies, mountain dogs, ect. These dogs have shorter life spans just by aging faster, not to menetion the increase rise on their joints and chests.

Vienna comes from a large litter, she's a bitch at about 25-26", her brothers are at about 30", the two that I've been around are already having problems. One has bloated and one has epilepsy. These dogs are also super thin, I can't imagine the strain if they were heavy. Just my opinion.

Standard poodles aren't meant any shouldn't be giant. They're suppose to be a regal and elegant breed; I think that starts being removed when they get TOO large.
__________________
Fluffyspoos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2012, 04:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
msminnamouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Ginger (my service dog) and Angel
Poodle Type: Standard, Mini
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 230
Thanked 345 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Warning: I may not be very coherent, I'm pretty tired as I'm writing this and should probably be sleeping.

Not to insult anyone or poodles (they don't really get a say in everything) but I keep hearing from vets that the only proven thing to help prevent and slow down arthritis is keeping large dogs slim from youth. So even with good lines, aren't the larger poodles going to have a harder time on their joints no matter their pedigree? More gravity, more stress.

And also, if a smaller, fine boned, even slender poodle has bad breeding, they too could have early or severe joint problems.

Neither seem all that conducive to great health. To my thinking, it would seem that the smaller, fine boned standards with good breeding would have the best chance for joint health. I can't talk about bloat and other things because I don't really know about that.

I love all standards. But I do think that the ones bred for the classic regal bearing and slim, delicate lines look like ideal standard poodles. When they get huge and big boned, they start to look like portuguese water dogs and doodles to me.
__________________
msminnamouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2012, 05:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 4,275, Level: 44 Points: 4,275, Level: 44 Points: 4,275, Level: 44
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
zyrcona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Poodle Type: standard
Location: England
Posts: 501
Thanks: 166
Thanked 810 Times in 337 Posts
Default

If a dog just happens to be bigger or smaller than usual, there's nothing wrong with that. That's just natural variety. However, if a breeder is purposely breeding together large dogs and selecting the biggest puppies to breed with the intention of breeding larger and larger dogs and marketing said dogs under a gimmick name, I don't think this breeder has the best interests of the breed at heart. Poodles were originally bred to be retrievers, and most retrievers are medium-sized agile dogs. If you want a big strong dog or a very tall dog, there are other breeds around that will fit the bill.

Within a species, being over an optimum size puts more strain on the heart and joints. It's nothing to do with genetic disease; it's just straightforward physical issues of mechanics and the blood pressure necessary to keep a larger body adequately oxygenated. That's why tall, fat, or muscular people tend not to live as long as smaller ones when other factors have been accounted for. It's presumably why Douglas Adams (an unusually tall person) died of a heart attack aged 49. The largest breeds of dogs around today have a life expectancy of around seven years, whereas smaller ones can expect more like sixteen years. I don't think a poodle the size of a Great Dane would be attractive or move nicely, or contribute anything positive to the breed.
zyrcona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2012, 06:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 48,608, Level: 100 Points: 48,608, Level: 100 Points: 48,608, Level: 100
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
partial2poodles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Names of dogs: Jetta, Ben, Cooper, Gino & Sugar
Location: Ellwood City, PA
Posts: 1,306
Thanks: 7
Thanked 120 Times in 67 Posts
Default

Since I have a very small male standard, I always hesitated to enter him in conformation.....id see what was currently being show and they seemed huge, taking these HUGE strides around the ring and I felt like we didn't stand a chance. I bred him to a fairly big females, bigger boned and taller and I plan on showing Sugar who is a granddaughter. She seems to be the type that would not be overlooked like her small pap-pap. I like em all. Every size fulls a need for someone. My least favorite ones are the 3-5 pounders....just not into mesquito size dogs
__________________
partial2poodles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2012, 07:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 69,164, Level: 100 Points: 69,164, Level: 100 Points: 69,164, Level: 100
Activity: 3.4% Activity: 3.4% Activity: 3.4%
Last Achievements
 
outwest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Names of dogs: Bonnie, Jazz and Cooper
Poodle Type: Two Standards and a Miniature
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,886
Thanks: 5,725
Thanked 7,423 Times in 3,047 Posts
Default

I have a small standard. She is different than a fullsized one, not as robust looking, a smaller bark, but super light and bouncy. I love the fullsized ones and may get one yet. The big boned giant ones, to me, lack elegance. They lose that because of their weight, but that doesn't mean they aren't great dogs. They just aren't particularly bouncy/poodly, but some people don't care about that.

The heavier/bigger they are the more joint problems. I think it is possible to have a big one without joint problems, but they would have to be light weight for their height. Larger dogs live shorter lives. Some breeders are trying to control the size by breeding more average sized standards.

Last edited by outwest; 01-08-2012 at 07:35 AM.
outwest is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to outwest For This Useful Post:
Lou (11-30-2012)
Old 01-10-2012, 02:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
msminnamouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Ginger (my service dog) and Angel
Poodle Type: Standard, Mini
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 230
Thanked 345 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Quote:
If a dog just happens to be bigger or smaller than usual, there's nothing wrong with that. That's just natural variety. However, if a breeder is purposely breeding together large dogs and selecting the biggest puppies to breed with the intention of breeding larger and larger dogs and marketing said dogs under a gimmick name, I don't think this breeder has the best interests of the breed at heart. Poodles were originally bred to be retrievers, and most retrievers are medium-sized agile dogs. If you want a big strong dog or a very tall dog, there are other breeds around that will fit the bill.

Within a species, being over an optimum size puts more strain on the heart and joints. It's nothing to do with genetic disease; it's just straightforward physical issues of mechanics and the blood pressure necessary to keep a larger body adequately oxygenated. That's why tall, fat, or muscular people tend not to live as long as smaller ones when other factors have been accounted for. It's presumably why Douglas Adams (an unusually tall person) died of a heart attack aged 49. The largest breeds of dogs around today have a life expectancy of around seven years, whereas smaller ones can expect more like sixteen years. I don't think a poodle the size of a Great Dane would be attractive or move nicely, or contribute anything positive to the breed.
I agree with everything you said. I don't understand breeding spoos to be tanks, why not use a breed that is normally this way if that's what you need?

People who like their tank spoos won't agree that there's anything unhealthy about them.

I also love spoos no matter what but they start to move and look unpoodley and so what's the point?
__________________
msminnamouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2012, 02:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 56,658, Level: 100 Points: 56,658, Level: 100 Points: 56,658, Level: 100
Activity: 2.0% Activity: 2.0% Activity: 2.0%
Last Achievements
 
PoodlePowerBC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Names of dogs: Russell Standard Poodle (Rufus RIP) Leonardo Yorkshire Terriorist
Poodle Type: Brown Standard
Location: Abbotsford, BC
Posts: 1,135
Thanks: 1,906
Thanked 1,310 Times in 508 Posts
Default

Well ... my guy is on the bigger side, and there is NO doubt he is a poodle. And he bounces and prances like a poodle. Not sure what size you guys are talking about, but .... I did see a poodle on a website that was 125 lbs. Honestly ... I thought it was a Doodle, but they claim it's a Spoo. And Russell doesn't look huge next to a lot of the Spoos in our neck of the woods! There are lots that are smaller ... and lots the same height and heavier. Gotta say, even at the last Dog Show I went to, he woulda fit right in. He is taller than the "average" Labrador Retriever, but weight a heck of a lot less. Maybe I'm just missing the point :(
__________________

"There is nothing that any breed can add to a poodle to improve it"
PoodlePowerBC is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tell Me About Standards DaveTN Poodle Talk 24 12-20-2011 06:47 PM
Is it okay to adopt a 2nd dog who is bigger than your 1st? LEUllman Poodle Talk 10 12-17-2010 08:19 PM
how much bigger? faerie Poodle Talk 5 04-27-2010 06:13 PM
what a bigger fault ? WonderPup Poodle Talk 5 01-11-2010 06:26 AM
Jasper is already bigger KPoos Poodle Pictures 18 10-14-2009 01:25 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:45 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
All (C) PoodleForum.com
PetGuide.com
Basset Hound Forum Doberman Forum Golden Retriever Forum Beagle Forum
Boxer Forum Dog Forum Pit Bull Forum Poodle Forum
Bulldog Forum Fish Forum Havanese Forum Maltese Forum
Cat Forum German Shepherd Forum Labradoodle Forum Yorkie Forum Hedgehog Forum
Chihuahua Forum Retriever Breeds Cichlid Forum Dart Frog Forum Mice Breeder Forum