Stomach Tacking...anyone do it? - Page 7 - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!

ArreauStandardPoodle · 01-14-2012, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaddaluvpoodles

As I read through these messages, I am struck with sadness. I absolutely adore English Bulldogs (true confession!), however, I can't imagine being involved with a breed where routine C-sections are the norm. Yet, what I am reading here.. routine gastropexies with standards are normal, accepted and being recommended by breeders!

This should be such a huge wakeup call to poodles owners and breeders everywhere.

I have begged and pleaded with people to publicly disclose all poodle health issues, including bloat for many, many years. Yet that still isn't happening. I am aware of poodles who have bloated and been tacked who are actively being bred. Why? Because the owners claim the bloat was caused by stress, the dog bloated but hadn't torsioned "so it's not a true bloat", the dog "ate a whole bag of dog food of a type he/she wasn't used to", he/she was ten, eleven, twelve years old.. "any old poodle can bloat".. etc.

Folks, bloat, is bloat whether there is a torsion involved. Bloat is bloat, regardless of the age of the poodle.

There are lots of people out there who will tell you that their bloodlines are bloat free, or that no breeder should ever breed from a line where there is bloat risk. I don't have mini's and toys, haven't spent any time looking at those pedigrees, but I do have standards and I've spent years tracking health issues and reviewing pedigrees. I'd love it if all of you who have standards from lines without bloat could please share your pedigrees!

As for breeder's recommending pexies, no one ever wants to have, know, see a poodle who bloats, no one ever wants the heartbreak that accompanies that. We do know that pexies don't prevent bloat, but that they help to reduce the risk factors of a fatal torsion. But I personally can no support breeders recommending prophylactic pexies for a couple of reasons... first.. it's to the breeder's advantage to do so: it helps to mitigate the chances of a poodle bloating.. and a report to PHR.. but those reports are necessary and critical to future breeders and the well being of our breed. Breeders need to know where bloat risks are in order to avoid them when planing breedings. If the information isn't there, we are undermining the future health of the breed. Secondly, if the bloat risk in individual lines of poodles is so high that the breeder needs to recommend prophylactic pexies... I don't believe those lines should be perpetuated. Thirdly (how did I sneak that thirdly in), I have, thus far been fortunate in my lack of personal encounters with bloat, I am, however, a bit sceptacle about the veterinary world.. and sometimes I wonder how much of the prophylactic pexy info is perpetuated and given momentum by the same vet community who endorses multiple vaccinations for health promotion....at our dogs expenses.

Having said that, I owe an almost immediate apology to Arreau... Whenever one of us has something horrible happen, like Thinker's bloat, our sensitivity to that issue is always extremely heightened and we want to do everything we can to protect our other poodles and that is what Arreau is doing. This posting is not meant to cause pain.

When breeders plan a breeding, most do the very best they can to select low risk parents, every litter that is produced and ever pup within each litter is a "test". If we pexy everyone.. I believe it skews the results of that "test".

Just some things to think about....

Well, regardless of what anyone might think of my recommending this procedure to every single puppy buyer who contacts me, I will continue to do so. After watching my Mother's beloved heart dog go through two bloat episodes in five weeks, I NEVER, EVER want to think of another's life being snuffed out by this disgusting ailment or for the end of their life to be so filled with pain and confusion. To see a boy whose life had to that point only been about loving and being loved, panicked, scratching the floor, crying out, writhing in pain...I am sorry if it goes against the grain of what breeders SHOULD do... but I will continue to be a proponent of tacking until someone, somewhere comes up with some clear cut answers.

Yaddaluvpoodles · 01-14-2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArreauStandardPoodle

Well, regardless of what anyone might think of my recommending this procedure to every single puppy buyer who contacts me, I will continue to do so.

Arreau, I don't think badly of you at all! For the time being, I have a different opinion.. and that could change at any time. I've said time and time again that breeders need to do what they believe is right, regardless of what other breeders are doing. What I expressed or attempted to, is my opinion and concerns over the current trends in tacking and how I believe that it may decrease even further the reporting of bloat episodes.
After watching my Mother's beloved heart dog go through two bloat episodes in five weeks, I NEVER, EVER want to think of another's life being snuffed out by this disgusting ailment or for the end of their life to be so filled with pain and confusion. To see a boy whose life had to that point only been about loving and being loved, panicked, scratching the floor, crying out, writhing in pain

It is simply beyond my comprehension.. and I pray that it always remains so. Bloat is one of the ugliest nightmares I have. My heart goes out to every dog who has bloated as well as their owners....I am sorry if it goes against the grain of what breeders SHOULD do... but I will continue to be a proponent of tacking until someone, somewhere comes up with some clear cut answers.
No one is going to come up with clear answers until we have built a better foundation for research, pedigree tracking, etc. Tacking MAY help prevent the deaths of individual poodles in some cases, the bigger issue is prevention of it in all of our poodles. I have updated my puppy contracts, they now REQUIRE owners to register health issues with PHR as well as notifying me. I am more than willing to help with the PHR paperwork and have gone so far as to fill out everything except for the owner's signature/ and the vet portion and mail it to the owner. I would encourage all breeders to be as proactive.

......

zyrcona · 01-14-2012, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaddaluvpoodles

Here's why.... if you had a.. $5000 poodle, would you feed that poodle the cheapest sale dog food of the week, never deworm, not take the dog to the vet... most likely, you would treat your dog with the most exquisite care, spending hours researching diets, exercise, etc. Now as a human.. if you had a million dollar body (my body is priceless.,. how about yours?) Would feed it only the healthiest most organic of foods.. or would you make offerings in the form of chocolate, caffeine, hot fudge sundaes.... would you do everything you could to mitigate health risks (these are obviously rhethorical questions) or would you endulge and live life in comfort, luxury... etc. Most of us tend to believe that we are invincible, that "it" can't happen to us.. until "it" does and we don't take a whole lot of preventatives.

Hmm... in replying to this point (and appreciating I'm going off topic slightly), I understand that my approach may not be typical of most people. I consider my dogs to be priceless, whether I paid 5,000 USD for them or was given them for free. I treat my dog in this respect the same as I would myself or another human. I also would contend that much of the evidence to what various schools of thought claim is a healthy lifestyle is contradictory and not particularly compelling. I would say your strongest chances at health and longevity come first from your genetics, then from stress, then from lack of exercise, and with other factors such as dietary coming after this.

With regards to food, there is little clear consensus of what actually is the healthiest food, and I personally wouldn't consider it to be organic food. In fact I would eat entirely genetically modified food if I were able to obtain it, both because I see no convincing evidence of any impediment to it, and to show my support for scientific research in this area because people in this world are starving to death and so far it's the only viable and humane answer. YMMV. In practice my dog and I tend to eat what we enjoy, what I can best determine is healthy, and what our digestive systems can cope with.

A lot of people would probably consider my diet to be revolting/unhealthy. I mostly eat food that probably fits best under the RAF/paleo definition umbrella, i.e. a load of raw meat and fat plus some fruit and salad plus steamed/boiled fruit/vegetables/meat that's not appropriate for eating raw. I have medical conditions that mean my digestion just can't cope with large amounts of starch and fibre. I am also mucking around at the moment trying to farm insects (there's reasonable evidence that insects are a healthy thing to eat, but I don't see many people eating them and I can't buy them in a shop). My dog eats RAF food plus a variety of dry and wet dog foods that I consider suitable, plus fruit (dog loves fruit). I appreciate that other people may not enjoy eating this kind of thing and may do better on other kinds of food.

Without better information than we currently have, a lifestyle conducive to health is a gamble. You assess what information is available, and you put your money on a number and wait for the ball to stop. The winning number may not be the same for everyone. And you could be screwed whatever you choose if you happen to have wound up with a bad genetic combination. You might greatly reduce the risk of GDV by having preventive gastropexy, but as you said it doesn't rule out that risk completely. No surgery is without risk, and any procedure that removes or alters normal parts of the body will have effects on the body as a whole. When I chose to have my dog spayed, the benefits of it to me strongly outweighed the risks. I did not have a gastropexy done on her because I did not feel the benefits would outweigh the risks. For someone else, the risks might outweigh the benefits, which is why I think it's a decision that depends on each person and each dog and their individual circumstances.

kdias · 01-28-2012, 07:56 AM

After reading all of this and doing my own research, I am convinced that I want to have this done when I do get a spoo in late spring. My question is about choosing the vet to do this. I live in a very rural area, and am fortunate to have a good vet within 5 miles of my home. I believe he is very capable of doing anything, and he seems to be very caring about all animals. That being said...I had to take the cat in this morning for her annual checkup, and while there I ask several questions. They don't have any clients that are spoos, but do have alot of miniatures and toys, and have only had one over the years. I ask him for his opinion on the tacking and he said he has done this before in emergecies on other dogs, but had never done this as a preventive, though he could certainly do this and agreed he felt it would certainly prevent torsion. Your opinions-would you use the good local vet with very little experience with spoos, or a vet in the closest larger town which is 45 miles away?