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To Spay or Not to Spay?

8K views 66 replies 16 participants last post by  Dechi 
#1 ·
Well, if I am going to Spay Timi mid-cycle as is best, I have to get moving on it, but I am torn, and would appreciate thoughts on it.

Reasons to do it now :
1) she also needs to have a tooth pulled at the same time, and I really shouldn't let that problem go on any longer.
And I also want her to get an X-ray to make sure that part of a deciduous canine tooth was not retained, because that tooth came out late, while we were playing tug, and the top 1/4 was missing.

2) we don't have a yard and Timi gets her exercise at the dog park. And it was not just the three weeks that she was in heat, but for two weeks prior, and almost three months after, she wanted nothing to do with other dogs, so that amounts to a lot of time away from the park and exercise (there is NO WAY that I could walk her enough on a leash for it to be significant exercise for that tiny ball of muscles)

3) Eliminating the risk of pyometria

4) get it over with, the longer I wait, the more in love with her I am, and the harder it is going to be to do.

5) I have not been happy with my current Vet for awhile, but I do really like her dental specialist, and I can have the best Veterinary Surgeon in the area come there to do the spay, so I really want to have it done there. But once it is done I am going to start interviewing new Vet's and I do feel a bit of an urgent need to get that going for Teaka's sake, because at 13, who knows when she might suddenly need top notch Vet care.

Reasons to wait:
1) the Rottweiler Study that found that dogs intact until middle age have exceptional longevity

2) the higher incidence of auto-immune/ endocrine diseases in altered dogs. Taylee, was a highly allergic dog (spayed before her first heat), and as those of you who have lived with such dogs know, it can be quite miserable for all concerned to live with. And Timi, not long after she first arrived, I thought that she was going to be the same way - she produced a lot of dander just like Taylee did, and was very itchy. I managed to get it under excellent control using the same human dandruff shampoo that Taylee's dermatologist recommended, but since she has had her heat - it is just totally gone! But I am terrified that removing her hormones may cause it to flare up again...

3) the higher incidence of adverse vaccine reactions in altered dogs. She is finished with her core vaccines, so hopefully with titers she won't need them again, but I gave her her first, one year rabies late, and even so she had a huge lump that lasted several months after getting it, so I am mighty worried about what might happen when she gets her three year rabies booster, and if being intact would be protective....

4) I don't want to have my dog cut open and have parts taken out of her. My first poodle Jolé died on the table being spayed, and I just can't help it, even though I know the risk of that happening again are extremely low, every cell in my body screams "do not take your happy, healthy dog and hand her over to someone to drug her into not breathing, cut her open, and remove the organs that Mother Nature gave her"! It was a little easier when I had my girls done 6-7 months after they came home, but I just couldn't bare it if something happened to Timi now, I am just so in love with her!

Though on the other hand, I do know that it has to happen at some point, and her chances are certainly better than now while she is young and healthy than they were for Tasia, who had to have a huge, but benign reproductive tumor removed at age ten (she did fine, and it was the same surgeon who is going to do Timi's spay).

5) Really, my experiences have been different than what the studies show - Teaka was spayed prior to her first heat, and all indications are that she will have an exceptionally long life. She has no endocrine or autoimmune diseases, she is great orthopedically, her teeth are great, her eyesight is great, she is the healthiest dog that I have ever known.
And Tasia, who was intact until age ten, died at age 12 after suddenly going into CHF, so the years of extra hormones did her no good as far as I can tell.

So, any thoughts? I really have to decide now!
 
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#3 ·
What mini poo said, I have the feeling you think about it a lot, you want to get it done, but you are spooked by your previous experience and your deep love for Timi.

I think if you wait, it will be constantly in the back of your mind and you will dread it.

Were it me, I would get it over with.

I was so terrified when Misha was done because of her liver problems and history of very delayed waking up from previous anesthesia. The vet knows I'm a nut, but I made him mask her down, no acepromazine, I was worried she would go too deep. I made them promise to call me the second she woke up. Remember I was with her when she woke up from her tooth pulling.

But once it was over and she was healed I was so relieved.
 
#6 ·
Ahh, as stressful as that was, yes indeed you were spared the decision.
I don't know, maybe this Is just part of my "process" - I took Jole's spay such an insignificant, ordinary thing, gave it no more thought than getting her shots, that Now I really have to put it under a microscope and make sure that it is the right thing, at the right moment, all the stars lined up as perfectly as I possibly can swing it....
 
#9 ·
I would do it so Timi can go to her dog park or classes or a photo shoot every day of the month. You have the most important stars in alignment - a top flight veterinary team for both procedures and a fit, young dog. Given your previous experience, I don't blame you for taking your time with the decision and reviewing the research. Not one bit.
 
#11 ·
I really don't know what else I could do. I don't really like that it will be in a hospital owned by a Vet that I don't like, and who does not like me I am sure, but she won't be working on Timi, just responsible for the pre-op and aftercare. I guess I would feel better if she was going to a place where I trust everyone, but it is too late to try and change now.
 
#10 ·
TP, you may be asking yourself the wrong question. It isn't whether or not to spay. It is whether or not you will.ever feel comfortable enough for ANY procedure requiring anesthesizing. You only want to put off the decision to spay to put off the decision to sedate her.

You said that her teeth need attention now and that you cannot wait. Is there anything you can do to feel more comfortable with Timi getting her teeth taken care of and being spayed? That may be the real question.
 
#12 ·
why is it too late to change? it's not as though this is an emergency surgery, right? i wouldn't want someone i didn't trust. it will only make you more tense and unhappy the closer you get to the surgery. check around a bit more and maybe even interview the vet first.
 
#13 ·
It would take too much time to interview Vets, find one that I like them, the facilities, the policies, will allow that Surgeon to operate at their hospital, and has a good dental person, who has a dental X-ray machine, they don't all have them, my last vet didn't (and how would I even know that they are good - I know that this one is good from the extensive work that she did on Tangee and Teaka) - in fact loosing her will be my one regret in leaving the practice.
I do want to get it done mid-cycle, and I am already running a little late on that, the 15th marked 3 months from when Timi's first heat began. If I don't do it at this practice, I will definitely have to wait for the next cycle.
 
#14 ·
If you have already made the decision to spay her at some stage, I would wait another cycle and find a veterinary hospital where you trust all the people who will be responsible for her care - before, during and after the op. When you have found the right place, book the date, no matter how many months ahead, so that the decision is made. One more cycle will have minimal risk in terma of mammary tumours and pyometra, so the only downside is the inconvenience of not going to the dog park, and you have time to find alternative places to exercise her. Or make the decision I have, which is only to spay if it becomes medically necessary, which carries its own anxieties.
 
#17 ·
Thank you. But when I read that, my reaction is that I don't want to see what additional personality changes another heat might bring.
I also think that the most important part is trusting that the facility does everything right as far as the anesthesia goes, and from Tangee and Teaka's experience, I think that they do. Plus, from their experience, I like and trust their dental person very much, and that is something that I could not know about a new place without going through it...
And with this surgeon, it is very unlikely that there will be any after care issues, and even if there were, there is a very good emergency hospital right down the block from us. So what am I really trusting the regular Vet to do - listen to Timi's heart, and run her bloodwork, really not a big deal.

Ha, I hope you don't mind, but I think that your telling me to wait, has made me decide to go ahead with it :)
 
#15 ·
Tiny Poodles, there are different types of anaesthesia. I would discuss your options with whoever will administer it and do a blood test beforehand just to be a bit surer all will be well.

Maybe you could do teeth now, and spay on her next mid-cycle. The teeth do sound pretty urgent and might allow for a shorter time under (but could be wrong, might be longer-the vet can say for sure).

I think there is a different type of spay available that leaves the ovaries. That might possibly have fewer side effects since she'd still have her hormones. But she might still have some heat cycles?
 
#16 ·
Oh yes, she will have pre-op bloodwork, Isoflurene, and full monitoring during surgery. This place did Tangee and Teaka's dentals at age ten, and those took 3 1/2hours for Tangee, 2 hours for Teaka, and they did fine.
And actually the dental part will take the significant time, one of the reasons that I want this surgeon is that I have previously overheard Vet techs say that she is astoundingly fast - like under 1 minute for a neuter, under 2 minutes for a spay.

And yes, I did look into ovary sparing hysterectomy, but decided against it because they would indeed still have cycles with all of the behavior changes that go along with it. The only things it really protects against is pregnancy, and Sort of pyometria - I have heard that stump pyometria is still possible.
 
#20 ·
Late to the discussion, but glad to see you are ready to make the call. My childhood beagle had mammary tumors because we never had her spayed. I had Lily done before her first heat cycle because Peeves was staying intact and I didn't want him ever to get any ideas about her. I was worried about the nature of their life long relationship. As you know since you've met her, she's fine!
 
#21 ·
How old was Lily when you had her spayed? There's so much talk about leaving them until after their first heat cycle, that I sometimes worry about having Abbey done. I think we made the right decision for our circumstances, but she was one week short of nine months old.
 
#22 ·
She was actually about seven months old and I too feel that it was the best thing to do given the circumstances of her living in a home with an intact male. She is very athletic and has never had any orthopedic issues despite a very active lifestyle.
 
#25 ·
Tiny,

I am glad you made the call. You will be glad when it is over. Our prayers of course will be with your girl on that day.



By the way, that new picture of Timi is FANTASTIC !!!



Viking Queen

Thank you (I wish I had clipped her face a bit smoother, but oh well, I do what I can do :)
I will take you word that I will feel better when it is over - right now I feel terribly guilty, like I am about to betray my girl who has never known a moment's pain in the worse possible way. I keep thinking of Jolé's face pleading with me not to leave her with the vet, and me thinking "silly girl, you don't know what is good for you", and look what happened... Repeating that scene as I know I will with Timi is going to be more difficult than I can possibly describe....
 
#26 ·
You both really will be fine! You have the entire Poodle Forum with you on this one.

I remember 13 yrs ago when I dropped Iris off for her surgery....by the time I picked her up I had a MASSIVE stress migraine. So we went home and both went to bed together. She with her pain meds and me with my migraine meds. The next morning Iris was bouncing around like normal and I had a headache hangover from the drugs.

It will be fine! (((HUGS)))

VQ
 
#27 ·
You both really will be fine! You have the entire Poodle Forum with you on this one.



I remember 13 yrs ago when I dropped Iris off for her surgery....by the time I picked her up I had a MASSIVE stress migraine. So we went home and both went to bed together. She with her pain meds and me with my migraine meds. The next morning Iris was bouncing around like normal and I had a headache hangover from the drugs.



It will be fine! (((HUGS)))



VQ

Oh yeah, I know I will make myself sick over this - I won't sleep the night before, and I have this thing - I dropped Jolé off, and went home like nothing, and then at 1:00PM, I got a very strong feeling that Jolé was calling to me for help, that they were killing her. I brushed it off thinking that it probably meant that they had just started the surgery, and that is how it felt from her perspective, and made a mental note to ask them what time the surgery had been. Then at 2:00 they called and told me that she was dead, and my whole world crashed down upon me. I asked what time she died, and they told me 1:00. The Vet asked me why I asked her what time it happened several times and I never answered her. I have since wondered if somehow she knew that I made that connection with Jolé and wanted to hear about it, but I did not feel like answering her questions at that moment, I couldn't even breath...
Anyhow since then, I can never leave when my girls have anesthesia, I think that they know when I am close by, and can "hear" me telling them don't leave, stay with me. I hope that doesn't sound too flakey - I understand that it is something that you have to experience to believe that it isn't just imagination or wishful thinking, but I truly feel that I can connect with them when they are in that state, and I feel that the closer I physically am, the stronger connection I can make.
Plus, I think it is good to be right in the staff's face - a good reminder that not this time, you don't get lazy, or sloppy, or distracted - you stay on your toes and do this by the book, or your worst nightmare is sitting in your waiting room.
So I won't go, will be sitting right there running on pure adrenaline for as long as it takes, I imagine at least 8 hours before they discharge her. And then when we get home, I am not sure what I am going to do, because My bed is high, and I would be afraid of her falling off, or stumbling if she tried to use the doggie stairs. I just might not be able to go to bed, and will have to hold her all night...I hope maybe her pain meds will knock her out enough that maybe she would stay in a soft crate, and I could bring it to bed with me, but I don't know if that would work...
 
#28 ·
If you're worried about the anesthesia, maybe your vet can do some tests beforehand just to make sure she can take it. My vet does some heart testing to my chinuahua before putting her to sleep, to make sure her heart will be fine during the procedure. He does it because she is so small (4 pounds). I never had a problem and she was spayed and had her teeth cleaned at least 4 times, all under anesthesia. She's 11 now.
 
#31 ·
What kind of heart testing do you mean? After my first one died, I did not spay the second one, but she wound up having to have a huge reproductive mass removed and spay at age ten, so when I decided to have the next one spayed, I took her to the Cardiologist before the spay, and she listened to her heart, but said that there was no testing that could be done that would be predictive of an anesthesia death.
My current Vet is good at picking up murmurs - she has picked them up in my two of my elderly poodles so far, and when they went to the cardiologist, the cardiologist graded them the same way as she did, so I trust her to listen to Timi's heart.
And of course Timi will have an exam and full bloodwork before the procedure. I will also ask her if testing hr clotting factor is necessary - I was going to, but recently read that dogs with Von Wildabrans (sp?) will bleed excessively during a heat, and she did not, she bled very lightly.
 
#29 ·
When I had to be sure Sophy could not jump/fall off the bed I took the small canvas crate up and put it where it could not possibly fall off, close to my pillow. That way she could sleep on my bed, and wake me if there was a problem, but was safely contained. I have slept on a heap of sofa cushions on the floor before now, too!
 
#30 ·
Just let us know the date so we can all be with you in spirit while the surgery is going on. Massive prayer circle.

Wish I could send you my secret weapon for stress. He's my great friend and chiropractor. He does this lovely thing with my skull when I am stressed and it has me oozing off the table. Stops migraines in less than 5 minutes and melts stress away. Hmmmmm....his Mom does live in New Jersey.... Maybe we COULD send the good Dr. Gil to you . . He's funny too and loves doggies.

Wish I could be there to keep you company.

Cathy
 
#33 ·
Just let us know the date so we can all be with you in spirit while the surgery is going on. Massive prayer circle.



Wish I could send you my secret weapon for stress. He's my great friend and chiropractor. He does this lovely thing with my skull when I am stressed and it has me oozing off the table. Stops migraines in less than 5 minutes and melts stress away. Hmmmmm....his Mom does live in New Jersey.... Maybe we COULD send the good Dr. Gil to you . . He's funny too and loves doggies.



Wish I could be there to keep you company.



Cathy

Aww, thank you, it really helps to have friends who understand and will be praying/thinking of her that day!
 
#40 ·
I think that they are charging so much to discourage us from using the highly skilled and experienced surgeon, and encourage us to use her 20something newbie doctor that she has doing most of their spays. It sucks, but when I think of Jolé, I would sell my soul to pay for it....
 
#42 ·
Ugh, and my friend just got a quote from my old Vet's place, for the same Surgeon, exactly half the price! (And don't even think it, even if I could go back there, they don't have the skills or X-ray machine that Timi needs for her dental, but no way I could go back there even if the dental was not an issue).
 
#43 ·
And finally today, for the first time since her heat, the full Super Timi was back, leading the pack in circles around the dog park - and soon I will take her out of commission again :-( speaking of which, does anybody remember how long it is after a spay when they are allowed back to full out dog park type fun?
 
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