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Old 11-04-2010, 05:01 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default When to spay

I know alot of members here are breed-ers and show-ers, but Francie is just a family pet that we never intend to breed. I was thinking about spaying at 6 months, but my (NEW) vet says he routinely does it any time after 14 weeks. Does anyone have any opinions on this that they'd like to share?

Thanks!
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Old 11-04-2010, 05:26 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I would do a toy at 6- 61/2 months....a mini by 7 months and a standard by 8 months. My standard girls all got their 1st heat cycles late...like 15 months old.

I would NEVER, under any circumstances spay at 15 or 16 weeks. Normal nice healthy puppies need those parts to grow up and be healthy adults. They will not get cancer by 8 months of age if you dont rip those organs out. I believe in spaying and neutering but I also believe in the LONG-TERM health of the dog more so.
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Old 11-04-2010, 05:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
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We got our lil toy boy snipped just after 6 months.

He was starting to get frisky with his soft toys and was almost fully grown according to our vet.
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Old 11-04-2010, 06:03 AM   #4 (permalink)
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As a breeder, I ask my owners to try and wait until closer to 1 year to spay. I think the secondary sex hormones contribute to better skeletal development. Another issue is that a significant number of bitches who are spayed early end up with spay induced incontinence and have to take hormone supplements to control their bladders.
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Old 11-04-2010, 06:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fancyfrancie View Post
I know alot of members here are breed-ers and show-ers, but Francie is just a family pet that we never intend to breed. I was thinking about spaying at 6 months, but my (NEW) vet says he routinely does it any time after 14 weeks. Does anyone have any opinions on this that they'd like to share?

Thanks!
My vet is a proponent of the early spay/neuter at (@14 weeks) but I chose not to neuter my mini until he was 6+ months old. His breeder was adamant about not doing it younger and I trust her completely. I was concerned with Chagall getting too leggy if he was neutered so young as I understood the grown plates are effected by the drop off in testosterone with early "fixing". At nearly 1 1/2 years of age, Chagall is in fine proportion and when he was neutered he had absolutely no problems with his recovery.

As an aside, if you do spay at 6 months be sure your vet checks your poodle's teeth to see if there are any retained baby teeth. I was ticked off to have to have my poodle re-sedated and have a retained incisor yanked when he was 9 months. Oddly enough, my vet wanted to wait on that to let nature take its course feeling there'd be no misalignment to Chagall's adult teeth. I wasn't so sure; I know, he went to vet school and I didn't, and after the tooth was pulled he showed me how thin the root was and how it would have fallen out on its own in time. Meanwhile, $300 "fell out" of my wallet for the extraction--which cost more than the neutering!!

Good luck on whatever you decide to do for your girl.
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Old 11-04-2010, 07:03 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Vegas's contract was very specific about not doing it before 6 months. I got him done at 7 1/2

Vienna came to me not spayed, so she got done at 2 1/2, I SO wish they had gotten her done younger
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:24 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrand View Post
As a breeder, I ask my owners to try and wait until closer to 1 year to spay. I think the secondary sex hormones contribute to better skeletal development. Another issue is that a significant number of bitches who are spayed early end up with spay induced incontinence and have to take hormone supplements to control their bladders.
I have met only one incontinent dog, she was an 18yo Cocker Spaniel, she had anal gland cancer (that spread) and was spayed at a little over 2 years of age. My own dog (Cocker Mix) who will be 14yo in a few days was spayed when she was a little over 4 months old and has no problems what so ever with her bladder. I had a Dachshund who we did not spay until she was over 2yo who had horrible bladder control in her teens.

Potential side effect aside. The main reason to SPAY early is to prevent pregnancy. If you know you can keep your bitch away from males then by all means wait until they are closer to 8 months or even a year but if there is even the slightest doubt that you can't, have her spayed at around 5 months.
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:17 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I am planning to wait to neuter Darcy until 1 year. He is a marking (outside) a bit and humps a little, but only other dogs and not at a nuisance level. He's just over 8 months now, so not much longer to go!

I agree with PP - if you think you will have trouble keeping your girl away from other dogs during a season, and also don't want to have to go through a season (which is messy) spay around 5 to 6 months but no earlier. If you think you can keep her safe and are willing to put up with the mess, do it at around a year.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:16 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Here's some references to check on spaying:

AVMA Collections: Spay/Neuter

Some points to consider from research:
Mammary gland tumors are the most common cancer in female dogs (3.4% incidence), with
> Female dogs spayed before first heat having less than 1% of getting mammary gland tumors later in life than other female dogs
> Female dogs spayed after 1 estrus but before the 2nd having 8% of the level of risk risk of dogs spayed later
> Female dogs spayed after 2 estrus cycles having 26% of the risk
Toy and mini poodles are among breeds pre-disposed to mammary cancers.
Spaying even as old as 9 years old still decreases the risk somewhat.

Testicular tumors are 2nd most common cancer in dogs, with 0.9% incidence.
> Castration is curative (obviously)

Prostatic tumors in dogs has an incidence of about .2 to .6%
> Castrated dogs are at an increased risk of prostatic tumors (2-4 times higher risk)

Poodles were one breed named as being at risk for cardiac tumors, with an overall incidence of 0.2%. Risk in increased in gonadectomized animals by about 2times.

Orthopedic abnormalities - gonadal hormones control the fusing of the long bones. Spaying or neutering before this fusion of the bones delays the closure and causes the bones to grow slightly longer than normal (not visible, but clinically significant).

Spayed females (of any age) do have a higher rate of incontinence (4.9-20% higher). One study found the risk to be higher when spaying occurred before 3 months of age. Otherwise, there is no research evidence to link time of spay to risk of incontinence.

-----

Anyway - the information goes on and on, and in the end the 'best' time differs dramatically based on breed of dog and the different risks that the breed is predisposed to. After lengthy discussions with people I trust and my own review of whatever papers I could find, I've made the reluctant decision to spay after 1st heat but before the 2nd heat for my female standard poodle (reluctant because I didn't want to deal with even a single heat). This will still significantly reduce her risk of mammary cancer (her greatest risk), not as much as spaying before 1st heat but it's a trade off with the possible orthopedic problems due to the long bone fusion issues. Incontinence will be a risk regardless of when I have her spayed.

In any case, the risk of any disease is just a game of chance. Odds are just that - odds, not set in stone. And there is no overwhelming evidence of any significant potential damage in either early or late (or never) spaying or neutering. Which means we are all just left to weight the pros and cons and decide what makes the most sense...
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:00 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilith View Post
Here's some references to check on spaying:

AVMA Collections: Spay/Neuter


After lengthy discussions with people I trust and my own review of whatever papers I could find, I've made the reluctant decision to spay after 1st heat but before the 2nd heat for my female standard poodle (reluctant because I didn't want to deal with even a single heat). This will still significantly reduce her risk of mammary cancer (her greatest risk), not as much as spaying before 1st heat but it's a trade off with the possible orthopedic problems due to the long bone fusion issues. Incontinence will be a risk regardless of when I have her spayed.

In any case, the risk of any disease is just a game of chance. Odds are just that - odds, not set in stone. And there is no overwhelming evidence of any significant potential damage in either early or late (or never) spaying or neutering. Which means we are all just left to weight the pros and cons and decide what makes the most sense...
This approach sounds reasonable to me, Amy. The other body of research I've come across concerns a higher risk of ACL rupture in dogs/bitches neutered or spayed earlier. Google Chris Zink spay neuter canine to get some references on that.

You might also want to ask your breeder when her lines typically have a first heat, as it varies by line. I believe Dexter's sister was about 1.5 years before her first heat (slow maturing lines).
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