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Old 01-30-2017, 02:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Silvers and Clearing

I'm seeing a lot of silvers who have cleared to different shades, so that the head is a different shade than the feet, for example. Do we know which genes are responsible for clearing and why the expression of those genes isn't uniform? Is there a penalty when showing, if the dog is over 2 years old?
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I'm surprised that no one has answered this. My understanding is that it is common for the lower legs and snout of a silver to be a little lighter. The photos below are of Sting who is my Sam's father and you can see some variation.

The genes that cause black poodles to clear to silver or blue have not been identified.

I don't think there is any penalty for showing a dog who is two years old, but there are plenty of people here who know more about showing than I do.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't believe there is any penalty. It seems that most silvers clear at the same pace, although some are really platinum at a young age, like Dolly and Maizie's sister, Star.
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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For grins, I googled images of silver CH poodles. I saw one with four seemingly perfectly matched light bracelets and one that had cleared with two light bracelets in front, and darker ones on the hind legs. I thought both would be fun to watch in motion. Black and white poodles already have an edge, over every other color, yet the coat only gets 10 points. I guess it is allegedly about coat quality and the coat color is supposed to be to the breed standard. A silver coat can clear in variations and still be the standard. Just my armchair observations.
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm the one to ask about dog coat genetics, I live and breathe this stuff!
Blue poodles (the ones with the blue nose and who don't grey as they age) are genetically black dogs with the recessive dilute gene on the 'D' locus, but I have always thought silver poodles to be caused by the progressive greying gene, on the 'G' locus. I know for sure it is not dilute, because these dogs have black noses.
I also think Cafe poodles (or whatever colour it is that is dark brown but fades to a creamy brown) are genetically liver dogs with the progressive greying gene. This would make Cafe and silver the same colour, but with the eumelanin particles spread further apart in the brown variant.
I think there is another kind of brown fading poodle, but from photos I have seen, these dogs are actually either isabella (Cafe) or blue (silver) with the greying gene and/or sun bronzing. I would need to see pictures of the dogs as pups and a good image of their bodies + nose to tell for sure.

Can someone tell me if silver poodles are born dark? As in, born black, or very close to black? If so, I would bet a million dollars that they are caused by the progressive greying gene. If not, it is possible that it's an unfound gene. This is unlikely, I have never heard of a greying gene which has no yet known genetic cause.

Actually, I am inclined, as a dog coat genetic expert, to think that my dog Hendrix is actually a recessive red (white through red) with the greying gene. His coat colour is caused by phaeomelanin, and the greying gene effects this to a lesser effect than eumelanin. He was an apricot at birth, but is white to very faint apricot/creamish now.
This could interest some poodle breeders out there. I have read that often apricot or red dogs fade a lot as they age in dogs who maybe aren't bred as well. If that's true, this could be because they carry the greying gene. I don't know why I never thought of that before.

Oh, and yes, progressive greying fades unevenly. The progressive greying gene has not yet been located, but we have put it on the 'G' (greying) locus. We know it is completely *EDIT* DOMINANT OVER, not recessive to non-greying, we just don't know how it looks in the genetic code.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:00 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Silver and blue poodles are born black. Silver will have obviously silver faces by about 6 weeks.

Silver beige and cafe poodles are born dark brown. Silver beige, like silver, clear quickly. Cafe clear slowly, like blue.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
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That's interesting.
I did some research, Cafe poodles are actually liver pigmented (they have brown noses and lighter eyes than a black dog, yes?). I am told that silver beige poodles may sometimes have a black/blue nose, which could be the colour I spoke of earlier.
I would say that Cafe is the same as silver (but liver pigmented), though as I have no experience with dogs of this colour, I couldn't tell you for sure. Silver beige is a bit harder. It's probably a mixture of things, but that is very hard to pin down, given that they are liver pigmented. If they are born dark, they can't be dilutes. If they are 100% liver at birth, they can't be blues with sun bronzing, so this kind of stumps me.
If they are black or blue at birth and have black or blue noses, that's easy, but that doesn't seem to be what it is.
I have seen pictures, and they seem to fade very slowly, which would be odd for a progressive grey dog. It seems like progressive greying on a phaeomelnian coat, but that's impossible, given that the dogs are such a dark liver. No recessive red or clear sable would be that light.
Maybe it is caused by a modifier of the progressive greying gene on a normal Cafe? I will go ask some people and do some more thinking and get back to you if I think I have found the answer.

Note: If I have the colours messed up, what I mean is that the colour which looks like a brown silver is probably a brown silver. The one that fades much later could be caused by something else.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:44 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Actually Silver beige is like a silver they start clearing early as young pups and Cafe like blue starts later around 18 months.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:32 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleAussiePoodle View Post
I'm the one to ask about dog coat genetics, I live and breathe this stuff!
Blue poodles (the ones with the blue nose and who don't grey as they age) are genetically black dogs with the recessive dilute gene on the 'D' locus, but I have always thought silver poodles to be caused by the progressive greying gene, on the 'G' locus. I know for sure it is not dilute, because these dogs have black noses.
I also think Cafe poodles (or whatever colour it is that is dark brown but fades to a creamy brown) are genetically liver dogs with the progressive greying gene. This would make Cafe and silver the same colour, but with the eumelanin particles spread further apart in the brown variant.
I think there is another kind of brown fading poodle, but from photos I have seen, these dogs are actually either isabella (Cafe) or blue (silver) with the greying gene and/or sun bronzing. I would need to see pictures of the dogs as pups and a good image of their bodies + nose to tell for sure.

Can someone tell me if silver poodles are born dark? As in, born black, or very close to black? If so, I would bet a million dollars that they are caused by the progressive greying gene. If not, it is possible that it's an unfound gene. This is unlikely, I have never heard of a greying gene which has no yet known genetic cause.

Actually, I am inclined, as a dog coat genetic expert, to think that my dog Hendrix is actually a recessive red (white through red) with the greying gene. His coat colour is caused by phaeomelanin, and the greying gene effects this to a lesser effect than eumelanin. He was an apricot at birth, but is white to very faint apricot/creamish now.
This could interest some poodle breeders out there. I have read that often apricot or red dogs fade a lot as they age in dogs who maybe aren't bred as well. If that's true, this could be because they carry the greying gene. I don't know why I never thought of that before.

Oh, and yes, progressive greying fades unevenly. The progressive greying gene has not yet been located, but we have put it on the 'G' (greying) locus. We know it is completely *EDIT* DOMINANT OVER, not recessive to non-greying, we just don't know how it looks in the genetic code.

Well, I am certainly not an expert, but I did spend some time looking into this when I bred Cammie (cream) to Sting, the silver champion pictured above in post #2. (We ended up with 4 creams and one blue.)

My understanding is that while the recessive dilute gene on the 'D' locus causes blue in some breeds, it is very rare in poodles (but does occur).

The genetic cause of the blue that we normally see in poodles has not been identified, so there is no genetic test for it. It is thought to be a case of incomplete dominance where the dog is silver if it has 2 of the fading genes, blue if he has one and black if he has none. So unlike the genetics for cream (cream is recessive -- you need two cream genes to get a cream dog), fading is incomplete dominance. If you have one fading gene and one that is not fading, you fade a little bit -- e.g. blue. Puppies inherit one fading or non-fading gene from each parent. This theory corresponds with the observation of what happens. If you breed black to a black, any pups born black will remain black. Breed silver to silver and any pups born black will clear to silver. But breed blue to blue and you can get silver, blue or black. Thatís because a pup could inherit either a fading gene or a non-fading gene from each parents and could end up with 2, 1 or no fading genes -- so they could be silver, blue or black. Iíve heard reference to this being on the ĎVí locus, but Iím not sure what that means if the genes have not been indentified.

The mechanism for browns clearing to cafe au lait or silver beige is the same, probably controlled by exactly the same gene/allele. But the mechanism for determining where a pup falls on the red-apricot-cream-white spectrum is very different.
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks, PeppersB. That was very a clear explanation.
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