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Old 11-04-2012, 06:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default English Saddle or Continental for Show Ring

I think cyberspace ate my other post so if this is a repeat sorry lol.

I would like to know in which instances is a dog better suited to the ES as opposed the Continental? I have gone crazy and lopped off my minis rosettes lol. Im growing her coat and it would just be easier to have her in a puppy lion trim where I can do FFF galore and the public wont notice how bad in need of a haircut she is lol. So then I thought to myself if she is that long that I could try the English saddle trim!

Now Im not to shabby at the Continental and she looks pretty good in it, but I cant help wonder if she may look better in the ES. She looked good in the puppy trim. I know if I put her in ES it will be relatively easy to put her in a continental from there. I dont want to cut her chances are winning.

Now I have been told how some judges wont place a dog in ES because it looks like they are hiding something. Yet I see poodles win in the ES.. some that move very well but have straighter angles. So Im wondering if I should even try to show her in ES.. I like to challenge myself in the grooming department, but I can always play with the trim when I fully retire her. But it sure would be nice to walk in that ring with an ES and take the win lol. I know if I dont get it right I could make her comformation look worse than it is, so any tips, opinions, experience is welcome!! Thanks!
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Have seen it used well in the 12 - 18 month "in between" stages.

I was also told that some/many old school thought considered ES used to hide flaws. But the reality is that just isn't the case. I'll reiterate that structure just cannot be hidden. Especially when a judge puts their hands on a dog - the thickness or the cut of a coat is irrelevant and movement tells.

Scissored and packed I think the ES can be just beautiful. Perhaps even more striking than a CC.

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Old 11-07-2012, 07:39 AM   #3 (permalink)
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My dog showed in ES in that in-between stage - finished his championship at 12 months in it and went to PCA in ES. He's got angles galore. I think it would have looked even better on him if he'd had more jacket coat to offset the pack. But he was simply young.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yes, the old school of thinking was if the dog didn't have a good rear put he/she in the ES to hide it! One reason I think you don't see a lot ES on a dog being shown is very few can do a good ES trim. I've seen few that I can say did a good job on a ES unfortunately! Just my thoughts for you.
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Old 11-07-2012, 02:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't know if you've seen these or not, but here are a few photos of T when he was in ES. The first one is one day after he was cut out of puppy trim and into ES. The others are from PCA, only 4 months later (and probably 3 inches of topknot less - LOL).

Like, I said, I think more jacket hair is needed in ES to create a look of balance than is needed in CC. While I really liked the way he looked in ES, I think he would have looked much, much better if his jacket hair had had time to grow longer. I really like the trim, though. Historically, I think people consider the ES to hide a straight rear (think minis!). Interestingly, though, T has a ton of angulation, and I actually think he looks quite moderate in ES.
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English Saddle or Continental for Show Ring-318582_10150401620994237_734109236_8191548_678176611_n.jpg   English Saddle or Continental for Show Ring-tiger-esc-bow069.jpg   English Saddle or Continental for Show Ring-scan0002-2.jpg   English Saddle or Continental for Show Ring-img_2393-copy.jpg  
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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IMO, an ES actually accentuates a poor rear....look at all the coat on their rears! Usually when grooming poodles you take that short short SHORT. To me, it makes the dog look longer in body and straighter in the rear then it actually is. It takes a gorgeous poodle (like T. ) to pull it off well. I suppose that a really good groomer could use it to cover faults...but it's actually really difficult to cover a poor rear (I try all the time on pet poodles, it just doesn't work! Especially if they have a steep pelvis.) and once the dog moves everyone will know immediately.

I don't know what your poodle is like op, but I would vote against showing in an ES if her angulation especially is anything but good. I know I would not put Trev in one! He's a mini, and almost all minis are straight in the stifle. He is no exception.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA Standards View Post
Have seen it used well in the 12 - 18 month "in between" stages.

I was also told that some/many old school thought considered ES used to hide flaws. But the reality is that just isn't the case. I'll reiterate that structure just cannot be hidden. Especially when a judge puts their hands on a dog - the thickness or the cut of a coat is irrelevant and movement tells.

Scissored and packed I think the ES can be just beautiful. Perhaps even more striking than a CC.

Tabatha
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My girl is a special, how well do you think that will work for her?
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcail View Post
Yes, the old school of thinking was if the dog didn't have a good rear put he/she in the ES to hide it! One reason I think you don't see a lot ES on a dog being shown is very few can do a good ES trim. I've seen few that I can say did a good job on a ES unfortunately! Just my thoughts for you.
Im definitely going to do my best . Unfortunately I see very little information on how to do an appropriate ES. Ill make sure I post my girl in it when she has enough hair for it to get a critique!
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:58 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharismaticMillie View Post
I don't know if you've seen these or not, but here are a few photos of T when he was in ES. The first one is one day after he was cut out of puppy trim and into ES. The others are from PCA, only 4 months later (and probably 3 inches of topknot less - LOL).

Like, I said, I think more jacket hair is needed in ES to create a look of balance than is needed in CC. While I really liked the way he looked in ES, I think he would have looked much, much better if his jacket hair had had time to grow longer. I really like the trim, though. Historically, I think people consider the ES to hide a straight rear (think minis!). Interestingly, though, T has a ton of angulation, and I actually think he looks quite moderate in ES.
T is beautiful, and I can totally see the difference that the jacket makes to the balance to the trim. Doenst look like the same dog for sure! Is that sexy beast in your avatar T? I have seen mostly minis in that trim lol. My mini has decent angulation esp for a mini. I have to download some pix cause my pc died.. but I did take some pix from the other night, she got a bath and trim to tidy her up as she grows out.. Im trying to decide were the jacket should end. I also have a BOS pix from this summer so you can see her in attire. I have been trying to perfect it, her coat gets the length but not so much on the thickness. I had her in a different style a lot more coat, a bit more aged style lol. So after recieving advice I trimmed her down to the BOS(not enough thickness to pull off longer yet) and I dont have/use wiggies. I notice she isnt winning as much so have redoubled my efforts to grow the coat she had and try the old way of spray up again.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:59 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Ok here are her pix.. First one is a movement pic (duh !), the next is the old style I did. The third is the one from this summer.. sorry didnt have time to edit and its an iphone scan lol.. The next two are of her a couple days ago.. banded.. trim down her poms a bit to match her legs more.. and some minor trimming here and there to tidy it up a bit.. I had already tightened her trim up a bit last time.
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