Fluffyspoos

Well, the day came. I'm both happy and a little disappointed with the outcome.

Vegas hadn't been around a shotgun ever, I haven't had the chance to introduce one to him since the rules for shooting came be mega lame around here. So first off I was worried he would be gun shy. There was shooting happening all around us and he would jerk his head in the direction of the shot each time.

Then it came around where a bird actually came within range. I brought my gun, but I didn't shoot at all, I was too focused on training Vegas. My dad shot twice at the first bird (missed both, lol) and Vegas was actually alert and looking around.

The next bird came down.. but went into the water. I wasn't going in after it. I gushed and gushed, pointing to the bird, trying to get Vegas in, but he would only go up to his front legs. We had to retrieve that bird later ourselves when we got on the other side of the creek.

The next bird that came down it actually looked like he watched it go down, so I released him and said 'Find!' and walked out there with him. When he found it, a few feet from me, he put his head down, put his foot on the bird, bit it, and RIIIIIIPPED up. I was SO mad.

Though the next birds after that were completely supervised on his 4ft lead. He's only really chomping when I'm not right next to him, so we would walk up to the birds, I'd let him find it then say 'Find!' then 'Hold' to give him the command to grab it, then I'd hold my hand out, say 'Give' he'd drop it, then I'd put him in a heel and make him hold the bird again then walk back to my dad. Once we reached my dad he would give the bird to my dads hand.

Good things

• Not gun shy, actually getting excited about gun fire
• Starting to watch birds in the sky as they fly past
• Watching birds as they fall to the ground
• Carrying birds at a heel safely

Bad things that need work

• Won't do water retrieves
• Wants to eat the birds if not supervised
• Not tracking effectively, would be standing right on top of the bird without finding it

Overall, for a 9 month old that I haven't been very heavy on training with, I'm happy with the outcome. We're going again on saturday and sunday, and in the meantime I'm going to work on exercises to lower his temptation and soften his bite.

Any tips would be appreciated.

cbrand

I think this sounds like a good start! How is his mark? This is the act of watching and noting where the bird lands.

Re not water retrieving and ripping up bird..... have you taught him a forced retrieve?

Fluffyspoos

His mark is iffy, he's always thought it was fun to run up to the general area and run circles sniffing, or just run circles looking around.

And will you please explain a forced retireve a little more?

Teffy

I can't add to this thread as I know next to nothing about hunting, but would like to say how happy I was to read this thread. Please keep this topic alive, I'd love to learn more.

Oh, and don't be disheartened, from my newbie perspective it sounds like you and Vegas are doing a fabulous job. At least Vegas didn't freeze up at the sounds or thought the bird was gross.

Fluffyspoos

Yay, lol, thanks. We're going again this weekend, so I'll get to work with him more.

The only thing Vegas finds to be absolutely disgusting is mint. Worst thing in the world to him, he'd rather eat cow poop.

flyingduster

from what I know of the forcer retrieve, it's generally done with either a toe or ear pinch and is technically a classic example of "negative punishment". There is a lot of information about if you search for 'forced retrieve', even adding in the ear pinch or toe pinch to the search will bring up heaps, and a lot of it is debate between those that love it and those that hate it!!!

Essentially the dog has it's ear or toe pinched firmly until they hold the item (is it put into their mouth when they yelp?? not sure...) and the pressure from their ear/toe is relieved the instant their mouth is on the item. If they mouth or chew or whatever then the pinch comes back in to teach them that holding the item is not optional, whereas purely positive training CAN give the idea that the dog can choose to do the behaviour or not with little alternative if they decide NOT to do it (though IMO that is positive training done poorly!) which is the main argument of force retrieve trainers; they want dogs who [assume] there is NO option; they MUST retrieve and hold the item, or they'll get a pinch.

Each to their own, and there is a lot of information online about teaching a forcer retrieve properly as well as having a lot of people who can help you with teaching it I'm sure. I researched it a fair bit a long time ago before deciding it wasn't for me or my dogs though.

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Fluffyspoos

Oh :x we already do the ear pinch, he'll hold anything I tell him to now (remote, cell phone, rock, ect), but I know that wouldn't work with water. It has worked beautifully with holding though, and you don't do it until he yelps, I first would put my hand in his mouth and hold it there, and when he started trying to spit it out I would put pressure on his ear with my other hand, he learned very quickly that 'hold' means to have stuff in your mouth without juggling it or spitting it out. That's why it works so well when I hand him the bird and we carry it back to my dad (with my hand on his ear to keep him from chomping, has been working for going back.)

Ear pinch is just hard when you have to follow him to the bird and he's already strangling himself on the lead (which he never does.) He's fast and is so focused on the birds and retrieving he's not hearing my commands first call, that's why I want a collar.

I'm imaging some people are going to bitch at me for being 'cruel'.. but we're doing what works for us.

murieics

I don't know if this would be something you could try or not, it just came to mind when you mentioned that you were having problems with him chomping, and it might be something you could work on when you aren't hunting to help with the chomping issue (I've never trained a hunting dog before, so I don't know if it would actually work or not).

My barn manager and I were discussing last night that she watched a training challenge once where you had to train your dog to go retrieve a hot dog and bring it back to you whole. She said she tried it with her sheltie once, and on the first try he brought her back 1/2 a hot dog.

You might be able to work on something like that, and work up to where he will reliably bring you back a hot dog without mauling it, and then switch over to bird wings (I know there are training companies that sell them with feathers).

If you look into books on training gun dogs, I know I've seen different ideas listed in the ones I've read on how to get dogs to carry birds carefully (I can only remember one method that I've read off the top of my head, and it seems like a cruel way to go about training a dog to have a soft mouth- so I'm not going to suggest it).

Hopefully the hot dog thing will work for you!

Fluffyspoos

Oooh! That's a good idea! I kept about five bird wings from the first day we went hunting (this one) and the last day we went I kept the one bird we have (frozen in the freezer) so I could practice more with him with those.

I'll try the hotdog thing! Any idea how to keep him from eating it?

murieics

Hmm...maybe start with less tasty items first, working on the "hold" command, extend distances with those, and then move on to the hot dogs and the birds' wings.

So, I think it would look something like this:

Start with something non-edible: teach hold, teach him to fetch at a distance, and bring back, while "holding". (I think you've already done this step).

Move on to something edible, but not great (maybe something like a large, crunchy milkbone at first would work). Teach him "hold" first, with him close by you, and give him a really good treat for holding the milkbone without eating it (so you give him something better than the milkbone). When he will successfully "hold" it close to you, work on extending the distance, then work on changing it from just "hold" to where he will actually fetch it and "hold" it while bringing it back to you.

From there, repeat the above steps with progressively tastier and tastier items (I would also move from harder to softer)- so maybe go from a milkbone to softer treats, and then work your way to the hotdog and the bird wings. I think the big thing is going to be making sure that you give him something better than whatever he is carrying, and that you make a big deal of the fact that he carries it carefully and gives it to you whole (I also think you are gonna have to make sure he is rock solid with each item and at each step, since eating whatever he fetches is self-rewarding- so make sure, for example, that if you are working on step one with the milkbone, I would maybe start off just having him take it in his mouth, and give it right back to you, then hold it for longer and longer, then hold it while you take a step back, etc.).

The biggest problem that I have with my jack russell with training this type of thing (we are working on leave it right now), is that you really have to be rock solid close by before you start moving away. She always knows exactly at what point she can get to whatever it is she is supposed to be "leaving" before I can, and so we are working on her leaving it when she could reach it but I ask her not to. This isn't an issue for her when I set something down and back away from it and ask her to leave it, but she gets so excited when I toss something, that sometimes she will go after it and grab it before I can get the "leave it" command in there. (obviously this is an error on my part- and if I give the command before I toss the item, she is usually good about leaving it).

Hope this helps!