Trillium

Thanks, I'm really fortunate with my instructor. She is a certified animal behaviourist that has titled her dogs in obedience, rally, rally o, conformation, she has trained with the English police department has have trained her dog up to attack level 7 or 9 (I don't remember which but know its up to lethal weapon status), she also has her dog certified as therapy dog and is actively involved with it, she is an evaluator for cgn/cgc and I think trains the evaluators I know that she has other qualifications but frankly when she was explaining them all I lost track.

She's quite tough and has already been getting after me for my footwork (apparently I have more to learn then the dogs) and I was getting in trouble this week for having my arm out too far when heeling with Jenny.

The only reason that she was suggesting calling the dogs when on a sit stay is that she wants them to know that bombs may go off (so to speak) but when in a sit stay they must stay that way. She felt that poodles as a breed were intelligent enough to be able to reason out that they were told to stay first and that is what is being asked of them regardless of anything else. She was very clear that it is not something that should be done with most breeds and that I was to be very careful in my corrections as she was also doing what she was asked in coming.

We have also been working on 20' recalls using a wait command and then walking away and working on our come. I realize that there is a lot of off leash work to do and we are starting to work on that too. But it will take time.

Beach girl

I didn't understand that idea of having the dog stay when you called her to come, either. What is the point of that?

Edited to add: you posted and I posted at the same time. OK, I get the "bomb proofing" your dog, so maybe it would be effective to teach your dog to "stay" even if someone ELSE calls, but I'm still confused why you would want to teach your dog, ever, to not come when you call "come."

I am also interested in training for competition obedience some day and that exercise sounds confusing to me.

'course could be that I am not as smart as a poodle.... ;-)

flyingduster

Hmm, well for Paris, when I say "stay", it means stay exactly where you are in the same position you are in until *I* come back and release you. If I call you, if I play ball, I don't care, you STAY. You will only ever be released when I come back to you. Never before.

Now, on the other hand, a "wait" is where you stay there until I call you. So for recalls, she is in a wait, where she has to wait until told otherwise.

ArreauStandardPoodle

This is exactly how Trillium explained the process to me as well. Wait and stay are two entirely different commands.

cbrand

Yes. There is a difference between "wait" and "stay". However, for someone training her very first Obedience dog at a Novice level, I think it could cause problems. At a show, if she calls her dog and it doesn't come, she will flunk her test.

Throw toys. Move around. Wave your arms. Say different words in an upbeat way. But, at her level, I would not proof by putting a dog in a "stay" and calling a dog to front.

Just the observation of someone who has watched Novice competitors struggle in the ring.

Beach girl

Arreau and flyingduster, do you use different hand signals along with the different words for "stay" and "wait?" I see what you're saying, about training a difference between the two, although along with cbrand, I think it would be confusing. Especially if the trainer is not 100% consistent in coming back to the dog after a "stay," and calling the dog after a "wait."

I use "stay" around the house quite a bit in informal training, and use "wait" only when they are about to go out the door (they have to wait until I have gone out the door first).

My house has a LONG flight of stairs down to the ground from the mid-level (this is a beach house) and I make them both "stay" at the top of the stairs until I get to the bottom, when I call them to "come." (Too dangerous to have little dogs running around my feet on the stairs.) So if I want them to know the difference between stay and wait, I really should use the "wait" command at the top of the stairs? I put my hand out palm up, and move it toward their faces, and say "stay" and they do.

They are both excellent at it, by the way.

So what would I change to make it a "wait" and not a "stay?"

Trillium

The only time I use stay is when I am going to go back and get them. I go back to their left side and give them their release word and have them move forward (the word is different for each dog). The hand signal for that is a hand in front of their face like a stop sign.

I use wait all the time though, when I want them to wait at the top of the stairs, wait at the door, wait in the car till I get out, wait in a training exercise when I plan on calling them etc. Wait is a wonderful thing. The sign for it is a wave in front of their face.

We are quite consistant about it the kids will even get after Daddy if he uses stay when he should use wait. The joys of taking them to dog training classes with me is they have really learned the commands with us.

However on a day to day basis training them I do use other forms of distraction. My kids are quite good at being distracting. Calling them while on a stay is not a day to day thing but rather a challenge to see if they had really gotten it.

Beach girl

OK, thanks. I tried working with them earlier this afternoon and did a vague sort of wave around knee level for "wait," so guess that's close enough. I think they got the idea. I did a proofing of the "stay" by making them stay in the kitchen while I walked down the hallway. When I got the end of the hall I acted goofy and started singing and jumping. The first time I did this Pippin just tilted his head to look at me like "what ARE you doing??" and Casey got concerned and broke his stay to come toward me.

I put C. back into his stay, did it again, and that time they both stayed. Tried it once more, even goofier and louder. They both looked at me funny but they both stayed until I went back around to their left side.

Mixed it up with some "waits" and "come," and they came first time, every time.

flyingduster

yup, if you aren't consistent, then don't bother trying to differentiate between stay and wait. They both mean a very similar thing, so you don't need to worry about it for a general pet at all, and you can get away without worrying about it in a competition dog too. You MUST be consistent, or else don't even try make a difference...

I don't think I've ever proofed Paris' stays with a FORMAL recall, and I wouldn't ever try either as I expect she'd break and that'd just confuse the hell outta her if I corrected it! But I can call her name and pat my legs etc in an informal 'come' style and expect her to stay, as her release, from BOTH a wait and a stay is "ok!", NOT "Parisss!!"

Beach girl

Thanks for the explanation. I'm going to work on this and explain what I'm doing to my husband, so he can help support the plan here.