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Agility - Sharing the ups and the downs

86K views 793 replies 46 participants last post by  Quossum 
#1 ·
For those that are training in agility - whether it be in your backyard or competing at the excellent level I thought it would be nice to have a thread to talk about the ups and challenges that we all experience.

As an introduction - I am relatively new to agility - started actual training classes this summer and fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Right now I'm training my toy poodle Bella and are working on foundation skills with two Mini Aussies. I have found a couple really good trainers and can't wait for the seminars to start again - hope to be ready to actually train not just audit.

As someone new to agility we really celebrate the small things - a new skill means a jackpot and today we celebrated two! We've been working on going down the A-frame and the dog walk. Today Bella not only offered but was excited about performing the entire A-frame and the dog walk!!! This might not sound like much but this is huge for tiny Bella!

Our continuing struggle is with what many dogs love - the scary tunnel. Bella has decided this to be avoided at all costs even walking near it is tough. And going inside... not even for cheese :-(

Any suggestions on working through this would be much appreciated!
 
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#53 ·
Make sure you never punish her for not staying! it will never build a good stay. Agility is just too rewarding.
Your job is to make staying the most rewarding thuing she does. I would have her sit and stay for meals until released. Be sure you reward her for staying with great treats!
I put my dogs in a sit and walk around them, going back OFTEN to reward. You have to proof it using toys, balls, etc.
 
#54 ·
No play for no stay! Try this at home. Set her up on a sit stay some distance (at least six feet, longer for a larger dog) from a jump and walk away two steps. If she stays go back and say good, treat and release. If she doesn't stay just make sure she doesn't get to take the jump before you reset her for the stay. Repeat with you taking one more step each time until you can get to the other side of the jump and then the reward is stay until released to go over the jump.
 
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#55 · (Edited)
Finally had the time, inclination, and software update (for a while there my video editing program was non-functional) to put together a very brief overview of Sugarfoot's weave pole training.



Link to YouTube:
Sugarfoot's Weave Pole Training - YouTube

He's coming along nicely, I think, though there's still plenty of work to do. Our training center's classes start up again next week. Since I didn't weave at all during the Beginner's classes (as I was working 2x2's at home), I hope to surprise my instructors with passable weaves when we start up again! (I say only "passable" because I'm sure Sugar will find a big difference in weaving in the back yard and weaving at class!)

--Q
 
#56 ·
Good job! Don't forget to drive him in the weaves. The extra drive will help him to sort out his footwork. It is getting better but he still sometimes crosses over but not nearly as much.
You want to create the drive every step of the way when training. So run next to him and really drive him.
Then you can start adding distance and fade away and throw your toy at the end of the poles.
He looks great!
 
#57 ·
Thanks, Helen. I've always been torn between sending him ahead or running along with him; I think I've done a little too much of the former and not enough of the latter! About three days ago something really "clicked" in his doggy brain and he seemed to get exponentially better, but we're still not a finished product yet. At least I see the footwork *starting* to develop, as you mention.

It doesn't help at all that he's firmly in the throes of "teenager brain" and being an all-around brat these days, at times grouchy, at times clingy, most of the time quite difficult in general. He's just over 13 months old, so I'm fervently hoping its an adolescent thing, meanwhile being patient but firm with the little bugger.

--Q
 
#58 ·
My 2x2 log

I think you did great!
For anyone interested, I tried to my 2x2 training log for my young standard Poodle. She was about 18 months old when we started. It wouldn't let me attach a Word file. If anyone is interested in seeing my training log, you can email me at helenking@tds.net and I will send you a copy. It includes videos of most steps.
She is the fourth dog we have trained to weave using the 2x2 method (we have trained 8 dogs to weave altogether and used many different methods before we started using the 2x2 method).
We have a lot of set backs in our training but it all worked out in the end.
:)
 
#59 ·
Tugging

I was just looking at another thread about raising a performance puppy. One post there talked about the importance of motivating tugging. I have a question for you guys about tugging. I want to know how and when you use it with your dogs. I have found that if I tug with Lily at trials before our runs she gets too charged up to pay any attention to me. She just goes into total prey drive and runs like a crazy fiend. When I am training I can use some tugging as a reward for good work or as something to do to move her around from the end of the course we are working to the start if she seems distracted but even then I limit it because it sends her into a mode where she is not too aware of what I am asking. I find I get my best results in training and in trials when she is in pack mode. She is a very high drive in leadership and prey, and stimulating prey seems to turn down her pack mode (which is low to begin with) too much. How do you all see this issue in your training and with different dogs you have worked with?
 
#60 ·
Tugging as a reward

Tugging is, without a doubt, THE most important reward we can use for our agility dogs. Some dogs don’t tug naturally and must be taught. Some dogs prefer a ball or treats, but if you can get the dog to tug, you will get a lot more drive from them.
We have trained quite a few successful agility dogs (standard Poodles, Border Collies and a mix). We use tugging at home to get the dog into the highest state of arousal we possibly can before and during training. If you can simulate the state of arousal your dog will have at a trial, you can teach the dog to work through being high and still paying attention.
Some of our dogs are off the charts with drive, while others came with zero drive. We use the tug to train them all. We always tug before and after our runs. At home and before a run we do a lot of tug –sit-release to tug-down-release to tug-sit… It really gets their head in the game before a run. They tug, do a simple behavior and are released to tug as a reward. We do this is rapid fire before entering the ring.
So if you can teach your dog to work through that high arousal state at home or in class, you will have a much more attentive dog at trials.
How many times have you heard somebody say their dog doesn’t like to stop on contacts, weave, stay at the startline or do the table because they don’t like to stop or slow down? I laugh whenever I hear that. Dogs do what is rewarding to them. Many people spend more time doing jumps and tunnels and less teaching the control behaviors in drive and MAKING THEM FUN FUN FUN!!! We must make all behaviors equally rewarding. My young dog LOVES the table. She will suck to it given the chance. The same is true with our incredibly high drive BC. The reason is that they were thoroughly trained on the table with lots of rewards. Most people train the table a few times and call it good. Then wonder why they have troubles at trials .
SO, I would say use your tug! Use it at home to bring your dog into a frenzy, then teach it to work through it and use that tug as a reward! 
I hope that helps.
 
#61 ·
Haha--jility and I train with the same philosophy, so all I can add is, "What she said!"

The idea of getting the dog "too excitied" and still expecting him to work has been a change for me. In fact, that's much what we're working through now with the weaves. Sugar is *really* hyped when I first get home and bring out his tug so we can go outside and weave. Now that he has the "basics" of weaving, I'm getting him out there as hyped up as possible and then just *going* at those weaves full throttle, and still expecting him to hit his entries and not skip poles.

I'll tell you it's very gratifying to see an over-the-top dog "force" himself to focus and hit the entry. You can almost see the wheels turning as this thinking-type of dog focuses his mind to the task. It helps also that he has no fear of failure; I can say "Ooopsie!" when he misses a pole and he comes charging back to me to line up and try again, no worries, no stress. Several "Oopsies" don't phase him, he just tries again. It's really amazing.

Relation to tugging: His reward is for me to throw his tug toy and bring it back to me. ;)

--Q
 
#62 ·
Poodles are just so smart :-D thank you all for the advise on the start line stay. Bella progressed so quickly that I can even duck into another room and she is rock solid - few minutes every day and some really good treats or even play with her favorite toy makes such a difference. Now comes the real test.... trying this outside our home - hoping to work in a private tomorrow prior to group class on Saturday - wish us luck we're going to need it!

The weave information is very interesting - as these are also a struggle - our old trainer had us leading by the leash around poles with gates on them. This did not translate to poles without the gates very well or without the leash. Last week our new club started us on a channel method - however Bella is so tiny that she slipped right under neath the wires. I am definitely going to look into the 2x2 method to see if this might help.
 
#63 ·
The 2x2 method is the best method to train weaves! You will llove it. You must follow the video and it works best if your dog understands shaping behaviors and plays with toys or tugs.
 
#65 ·
Thanks, Minnie! One of the reasons I was drawn to the 2x2 method was that it does not include any fences, wires, barriers, or other "tools" to establish the understanding of the weaves--not even a leash. All of those aids have to be faded in the end, anyway, which can be very difficult if the dog has become dependent on them.

Not that other methods can't produce very nice weaves! My training center in Beginner classes teaches a restraint-through-offsets-with-a-food-lure method, and it works well for most types of dogs and trainer abilities. My hubby trained his corgi using their method, and she just got her first MACH in November at just 3 years old.

He's been watching (and filming) me train 2x2's with Sugar, though, and seeming very interested in the process. I have a feeling, when he gets his next dog... ;)

Like jility said, 2x2's are best with a confident, toy-loving, operant dog. There's a place in the DVD when Susan works with a dog at Step One, and the dog doesn't offer much to work with as far as interacting with the poles. With patience she gets some behavior from him, but she notes that he really needs to go out and learn some fun tricks and get some Joy of Training going first!

--Q
 
#66 ·
Our latest update - we did manage to squeeze in a private on Fri evening and then had group class this morning. I was proud of my girl with her stays - need to work on proofing her with distractions but after only a weeks work she did very well in group class :-D

Had another frustrating experience with contacts. The scare Bella had on the A-frame when she was pushed over and slid down by that awful trainer is sticking with her - she gets to the point where she just freezes which is sad as she loved the A-frame and dog walk prior to this experience :-( With a lot of help from the trainers doing back training we managed one lowered A-frame and dog walk. I was told to stop luring her on the obstacles and to just encourage play and positive interaction.

A funny is that Bella is soooo fast considering she is so tiny! Trainers were surprised during a jump series and said that it will be important to keep her obstacle focused and working away from me as there is no way I'll be able to keep up LOL.

Happy Training everyone!
 
#67 ·
Ups and downs for sure

First, I have to brag again on Lily since we got our AKC Novice Jumpers title yesterday.

Second, Minnie just keep gently and positively working on those contacts. Lily had fallen off the dog walk last summer and it took a long time to get her back on it. Now I have decided to rework her contact exit criteria and it is taking a long time, but I am steadily seeing improvement. I came close to getting a qualifying run in standard this morning. Today was even better than yesterday. Every time we run I see she has better understanding of what I am asking for. Let Bella help guide you through this. She will tell you what she is ready to do. Push her just a tiny bit further as she is willing.

Now for my down and oops story of the day. I moved to open jumpers today and had a great plan going and was almost home safe when the toe of my right shoe just got stuck on the mat seam. Down onto my knees and heels of my hands went I. I have quite a bruise on my left knee and a couple of other things are starting to feel a bit stiff, but generally I feel ok. What was most concerning to me was Lily's reaction. When I fell there was a big gasp from the people watching and she came running back to me and jumped up with her paws on my shoulders, which was met with a big aww (like aww so sweet) from those watching. She was very worried and I had a bit of a hard time peeling her off so I could get up. I really wanted to get her to take at least two jumps and try to actually finish the course to show her everything was ok. The trial was at the place we train, so I didn't want to finish on a bad note. She didn't want to leave me, but I did manage to get her just far enough away from me to take the last jump. I stayed and did the novice standard course again really just to reassure her that all was ok. She took my direction well, but was very cautious on the contacts. I think we will be all good when we go to class later this week.

I think I need different shoes for rubber mats. I was wearing new balance walking shoes that I also use for obedience. They are not the shoes I use for outdoor agility. Any suggestions?
 
#69 ·
Oh it wasn't too long ago that I was a newbie. I have gotten lots of help from others along the way. It is always good to take a pay it forward view. Then you will always be able to expect help when you need it. I am sure you and Bella will offer lots of advise as you move through your training and trialing.
 
#70 ·
Agility class was better last week, he is coming along slowly, and we will probably continue on to the intermediate class. The instructor feels that it would be beneficial for Max. The main thing that we are struggling is that he balks at anything new or different. He finally did the walk last night after a couple of weeks working in slow steps. The tunnel is still a problem and we are now working on touching the teeter and this too is a challenge.

A little background about Max, we got him from a breeder at 6 months of age. When we picked him up he jumped on my lap and licked my face and tried to chew the buttons off my shirt! So he appeared to be pretty well socialized. Upon taken him home, he is afraid of all things new and reactive to people and reactive to dogs while on a lead. Once he gets to know you he is fine. He is still a very good dog considering this.

My question is do any of you have suggestions of exercises that I could work on with Max at home to make him a little more receptive to new things? My agility instructor suggested clicker training him to touch a Post-it with his paw but I have no idea of how to get him to do that.

I know that puppies exposed to new things a an early age do much better in the world. I am no sure how much exposure to the outside world he got with the breeder but, I would like him to be not limited by his timidness.
 
#74 ·
My question is do any of you have suggestions of exercises that I could work on with Max at home to make him a little more receptive to new things? My agility instructor suggested clicker training him to touch a Post-it with his paw but I have no idea of how to get him to do that.

I know that puppies exposed to new things a an early age do much better in the world. I am no sure how much exposure to the outside world he got with the breeder but, I would like him to be not limited by his timidness.
You might want to give the book Control Unleashed a try. It has a lot of advice and exercises to help nervous and reactive dogs, whether too hyper or too shy. Many of the activities have been great for me and Sugar, who also tends to be cautious about new things, especially after he was attacked by another dog at 7 months old. There's a puppy version of the book, too.

Don't give up; Agility will be worth it!

--Q
 
#71 ·
Specman I occasionally take a "core" class which builds muscle tone and body awareness. In this class there are all sorts of little obstacles/workout challenges. For example one station will have balls of different sizes that the dog puts his paws on and balances. Once he has that down lure him to leaning left and right to stretch his back. Another station walk on a slightly raised plank (just a few inches off the floor). Have him put just his front paws on then lean. Next have him put just his back legs on then lean. Another station mats of different sizes and thickness. Have the dog walk from mat to mat not touching the ground. Another station large ball which the dog puts his front paws on and walks around the ball by moving his back legs. While you have him try all these new things treat and praise lavishly. The change in Swizzle's confidence level was nothing short of amazing and it is great for his physical conditioning. Let your imagination be your guide in creating more core stations. The dollar store and ocean state job lot has a lot of stuff that is great for that. Also just use what you have on hand. I have used an old tarp to get Swizzle use to different floor textures and sounds. He has jumped a stuffed horse toy that neighs. Hope this helps.
 
#73 ·
I do lots of operator errors (like falling down in the middle of a decent run) even though I am starting to earn titles. Just keep your sense of humor up. Be patient Specman. I am sure you will start to see more and more changes in Max as you continue. I think he is lucky to have found you!
 
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#75 ·
Specman - Pls don't apologize for asking any questions!!!! Even what seems simple might be an issue someone else is experiencing too or give another idea to an approach!

Consistently back training is helping with Bella. She has a yes I can do that and does a little more each time - had a positive experience with correctly entering the dog walk today and offering the tunnel which was great! She acted happy and not frightened which was fantastic! Small steps but its the small things that matter - just love my girl!




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#76 ·
We are just back from today's class and little Bella put herself to bed in her crate after sleeping the hour drive home :)

Had a great 10mins before class started with the trainers working one on one with Bella on the A-frame. As her fear is so deep they put the entire frame on the ground and played first touch then restrained recalls across the frame (she loved this). We are getting there with patient teachers that keep it positive!

We played the bang game with the teeter and Bella was very reactive so we've got a lot of work to there as well. I am learning a lot about what I'm doing wrong as a handler - wayyyyy too much luring in several areas. As a positive the handling sequences in jumps went very well.

We have a lot of homework over the coming two weeks (next weekend instructors are at trials).

I do have a question though.... when do you know if agility is just not for your dog? Bella used to love this but with her fears I wonder how much longer do I keep pushing this? Thanks for any thoughts!
 
#77 ·
I used to work with Peeves in agility along with Lily. Then he fell off a very low dog walk and I could tell after that that his heart was never in it again. Lily has had falls but been willing to get back on the equipment she had the problem with without too much coaxing (although it took time to get her confident on it again). Look for the gleam in her eye and the posture of her ears (Up is good.) It may be that you will end up just focusing on jumpers with weaves type courses for a while. I find that Lily gets charged up by watching other dogs run because she want to have at it. Hope this helps you figure it out. I wouldn't give up yet. It has taken me way over a year to get to where I like what I see and to spend money on trials.
 
#78 ·
Minnie, it sounds like you are in a similar situation to me. Max is good at agility with the exception of the obstacles! I talked to his instructor and she felt that agility would still be good for Max and I signed up for another session.

One thing that I am finding is that a shy dog he cannot get enough reps on obstacles that frighten them in the class. I am looking to buy a tunnel to practice at home and hopefully get him more confidence with this one. It seems that once he becomes comfortable with an obstacle he does better.
 
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