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Old 02-03-2013, 02:29 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Your dog looks to you and expects violence from you. Whether that's a ruined relationship or not is each person's opinion. Yes, digging spikes into your dog's neck counts as violence, as does yanking on their neck.

I like that my dogs behave, look to me for direction, and don't expect me to lash out at them. But that's just me. I don't feel a need to bully them into suppression. That's not how I get my kicks.

It's all about what each person wants and decides and our dogs, like usual, are caught in the middle and are at our mercy.

And there are plenty of crossover trainers to disagree that a relation based on issuing physical corrections is a good one once they've seen how much better their relationship is when they no longer bully their dogs.

It's my hope that the OP wants better for their dog than a prong collar but like I said, it's their decision. It's their dog. It's up to them and the dog has to experience what they decide.

You'd be hard pressed to find any behaviorist (I mean REAL behaviorists with behavioral science degrees) who advocates prong collars. Behaviorists get referrals for the most severe cases. If they can handle much, much worse than a puppy's jumping up without prong collars, then there's absolutely no need for anyone to be using one on an exuberant puppy.

I'm still waiting for the definition of dominance that justifies this puppy's jumping as a show of dominance.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think it is important to realize that dogs do not feel what we feel when we train them. My dog might not feel pain from something that I do feel pain from and vice versa. An example, I had a dog that loved to swim. If there was water, he wanted to be in it. It could be 40 degrees in January and he didn't care, he wanted to be in that water and he had a blast. Now for me, I would have been freezing and the water would have been painful. To Max, my St. Bernard/German Shep retired police dog (who was trained with a shock collar and prong collar before I got him)he didn't feel any pain at all and the water felt great to him.

So lets look at this in another perspective with a prong collar, what my dog feels is not what I feel. My dog is very open to telling me when something hurts her. When I remove dead hair from her ears, you might think I was torturing her from the next room. When I use a prong collar on her, she shows zero indication that she is hurting. I personally do not think that the prong collar hurts when used correctly, if it is fitted correctly it cannot pinch a dog past a certain point, if fitted incorrectly, I could def see where that would be painful. If my dog ever showed any indication that she was afraid or in pain, I would stop immediately.

For my previous dog Max, when I got him he came with his Dogtra e collar, when I adopted him the person showed me how to use it. This was before I ever entered into the world of dog training further so I had no past experience with the e collar and the horrible things people say about it. The person who showed it to me explained that Max didn't even need it anymore, but that if you are in a high distraction area off leash near a road, it might not hurt for him to wear it just in case. I was a little uneasy about the 'shock' collar because at first it sounds bad. However I put it on myself and pressed the button at the same level my dog got. It didn't feel like a shock or painful by any means. I think something important to point out is that these collars are not meant to be used at a level that is painful, they are only meant to be used at the very first level the dog is able to feel something, which, as we know, is different for different dogs because dogs don't feel the same way we do. It is not about 'shocking dogs'...I promise it is not like that, if you have even been to a doctor that used a tens unit, it is the same thing.

I think something very important to keep in mind is that every dog is different and every dog will respond to different training methods. I think as a dog owner it is important to know and study every method and to know how to use the methods you choose correctly. Every kind of training method can be used incorrectly and to the detriment of your dog. Every kind of training method can also be used in a positive way with wonderful results.

If you are going to use a prong collar, e-collar, clicker, marker word, treats, praise, gentle leader or ANYTHING ELSE, please educate yourself on them before you use them.

Every dog has the potential to be awesome, and I feel that sometimes when we are so focused on ONLY using this or that method it is a great disservice to the dog.

To the OP- you have to decide what works for and what is best for your dog, and we are all more than happy to give our opinions(as you can very well see...some great trainers I look to for information that is easy to read and find online as well as youtube are...tab 289(youtube)...Robin Mcfarlane from Thats my dog(she has a website, blog, and you tube channel), and Jeff Gellman from Solid K9 training(he comes across very intense but if you actually watch his videos he is very fair and humane in his dog training...he also has a website, blog, and youtube channel), and Dog Star Daily....these are only a few but show you humane ways to use a wide range of metods.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Well I'm not a trainer but I might as chime in...although I have never used one, if you search this forum you will see many members here aren't against prong collars per se. However, just for jumping up? It's a pretty easy behaviour to change; a lot of consistency and practice should fix it. Poodles are so smart and sensitive, I don't think prong collars are the answer for jumping up. Just practice what fjm advised every day a few times around the triggers that had your dog jumping up before and make sure that you have a positive experience every single time for a week. Bet you will see a HUGE difference in only a week, if you work on it!
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Your dogs in water example are extremely poor. Dogs run significantly warmer than humans dog and they're covered in hair or fur. So a dog's ability to stay warm when a human wouldn't has what, exactly to do with pain?

Your dog is very open to telling you when something hurts her? By what signs do you think a dog uses to indicate when they're uncomfortable with what you're doing to them? I'd like to know how you know? Because she doesn't yelp? Big tell! Learning how to read body language isn't a skill that punishment trainers teach or learn. It's not important how the dog is feeling or why the dog is doing something. The only thing that matters is that the dog complies when you demand it.

What you write is just evidence of you regurgitating what your punishment advocate trainers have told you in order to convince you that what they're doing is okay.

If you knew what you were talking about, then you'd never claim that prong collars ever pinch to any degree since they're not capable of pinching at all.

The prongs dig into the dog's skin. They don't pinch.

If the prong collar is such a wonderful sensation, or the shock for that matter as well, then why do dogs work to avoid getting pressure from prong collars and shock from the shock collar? If it was so lovely and tolerable, then why are the dogs working to avoid getting corrections by them?

Positive reinforcement training isn't a single method, it's comprised of countless methods, just as punitive training is comprised of countless methods as well. So claiming that it's one method just shows your ignorance of what you speak of and how what you say is just regurgitation of what you were told and no critical thinking for yourself.

I've had TENS treatment and it was downright unpleasant. I've also tried numerous makes and models of shock collars on myself and they were downright unpleasant as well. If they weren't, they wouldn't work since you'd just be reinforcing the behavior that you're trying to stop.

By the very definition of the word, electrical shock and driving spikes into your dog's neck isn't humane.

Robin McFarlane is a laughing stock in the dog training world amongst anyone with any semblance of an education beyond her self erected school of shock. She isn't even capable of teaching the most basic thing without a shock collar. She's limited to a crutch because without it, she can't achieve results. That's the level of her ineptitude.

To be honest, you couldn't even teach a puppy bite inhibition by yourself. You're really way out of your league. You sent your puppy away to a board and train where they put a prong collar on a puppy and gave it a yank to suppress your puppy's normal play behaviors. Your puppy may have shown distress or opposition to it, like many dog, but then a harder correction is given to suppress that as well. Whatever it takes to silence the dog and have them cowed into compliance. I've seen it once, I've seen it a thousand times. That's what you want for the dog you claim to love so much.

Nice job. And a beautiful perspective on how people should be treating the animals at their mercy.

This thread is really getting disgusting with the things that people are advocating and justifying. Why not just save yourself the money for the lessons and punishment equipment and punch the dog in the face until they start behaving? Choking, digging prongs in the dog's neck, giving them electric shocks, it's all the same pattern of treatment.

Some people would be better off with toy robotic dogs with no feelings who never misbehave than a living, breathing, real life sentient creature with feelings and emotions.

You can be a tyrannical dictator or you can be a patient, nurturing teacher. The choice, unfortunately, is up to each individual how they want to treat their vulnerable animals.

I'm done with this.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:15 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Yet again you are rude msminniemouse to anyone who disagrees with you on dog training. Also, did you skim things because I never sent my dog to a board and train program I took her to reputable trainer for a behavior I wanted her to stop and for extra guidance because I am learning. I was there the whole time with my dog. I have never proclaimed myself an expert. All I have done is given my positive experiences and what worked for me.
(EDIT TO ADD: I don't think all board and train programs are bad. Maybe Msminniemouse is remembering wrong(giving her the benifit of the doubt), I did send a dog to board and train once, years ago(mentioned this when LOU was getting some bad feedback because she sent her dog to board and train) because I worked a 70 hours a week at the time and I wanted my dog to work on some behaviors so he could come to work with me. I knew the trainer personally and I knew how she would train my dog. Board and train doesnt mean you are a bad person or even a bad dog trainer.)

If something worked for me that you think is wrong or when your suggestions didn't work for me on something you all of a sudden, without having a clue to the person I am, or what I did with my dog, accuse me of poor training and of being a tyrannical dictator.

Never once said positive reinforcement is comprised of one method...again...did you skim?

I don't think that a low level shock or prong collars are wonderful sensations nor did I EVER say that. However when used correctly they are not in the least painful and they are annoying if anything.

My example of the water was obviously just an example of how dogs do not feel what we do, and that includes pain. I am simply expressing that what you said, we do not feel what dogs feel, is a correct statement and goes both ways.

If my dog is wagging her tail, excited, confindent, and showing all the signs that she is happy that she does when we are playing any game, I do not believe she is feeling any pain. If you think that makes me a moran, that is your opinion, go for it.

My corrections have never had to get stronger they stay consistent, my dog listens to me the first time and she is not afraid of me.

As far as turning the sensation of a prong off. So what. Like I said it annoying. I want my dog to supress negative behavior such a jumping up or biting. I don't think there is anything wrong with supressing negative behavior. We supress the desire to do certain things in life because we avoid negative outcomes, why shouldnt my dog do the same?

Go ahead and degrade me and imply that I don't love my dog. Anyone who has trained with a prong collor in the correct way knows that it does not mean that we love our dog less and it does not ruin our relationship with our dog. I know that my dog and I have a WONDERFUL relationship.

As far as Robin Mcfarlane goes, she has helped a lot of people with their dogs. Go ahead and call her a laughing stock. It doesn't change the fact that she has helped aggressive dogs and many people who were turned away from other trainers. She knows that, I know that, and the people she has helped know that.

Instead of biting my head off for studying many methods and trying to learn as much as I can(again I am by no means an expert I am just enthralled by the dog training world and learning as much as I can), wouldn't you show your opinion better by politely sharing it?

If you are done because we have a different opinion, then I am sorry you felt you had to leave something just because you didn't change everyones mind. If you are done because you just get upset reading what I say, then I completely understand.

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Old 02-03-2013, 04:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Attacked from behind...Our 1 year old SPOO does this.

All effective training is a mix of positive and negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement does not equal abuse. Prong and choke collars are TOOLS and should be used correctly, or else can become abusive. Not everything works for every dog.

My mom spanked me as a child -- hey, it worked! She still loved me when she did. As long as negative reinforcement is used correctly and in conjuncture with positive reinforcement, it is not "evil" and should not be demonized.

Don't like it? Don't use it!


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Old 02-03-2013, 04:59 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default what a debate...

I'm new to this forum and was expecting to be able to ask questions without having a second thought...Jeez, I NEVER expected people to act like this. I know we are all passionate people but this is MEAN...
I'm wondering...is it safe to ask a question without starting a world war?

By the way, Meo also jumps on me and standing at 5 feet tall...he manages to pretty much "push" me. He does this when he wants to play (which is always! but that's another thread!) and he does it in a way that some people would see as dominant, he stops if he gets the pissed off sound in my voice...

Anyways, remember, be kind to one another...or at least respectful!
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Meo's mom....agreed! We can't help anyone if we are bickering! I think the best we can do is share our opinions and how things have worked for us and make the decisions we feel work for our situation.
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:39 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meo'smom View Post
I'm new to this forum and was expecting to be able to ask questions without having a second thought...Jeez, I NEVER expected people to act like this. I know we are all passionate people but this is MEAN...
I'm wondering...is it safe to ask a question without starting a world war?

By the way, Meo also jumps on me and standing at 5 feet tall...he manages to pretty much "push" me. He does this when he wants to play (which is always! but that's another thread!) and he does it in a way that some people would see as dominant, he stops if he gets the pissed off sound in my voice...

Anyways, remember, be kind to one another...or at least respectful!
I agree....msminnamouse, you have made some great posts in the past, but once again you've taken it too far. Dog training is just like any other aspect of dog care: there is more than one way to do it. And it's totally fine that you disagree with some of them! But you can't get rude about it.

Don't worry Meo'smom, it's safe to ask questions! Even if a thread takes a bad turn, you can usually find some good advice in it. As long as you're ok with ignoring the not so savory parts!
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:28 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meo'smom View Post
I'm new to this forum and was expecting to be able to ask questions without having a second thought...Jeez, I NEVER expected people to act like this....I'm wondering...is it safe to ask a question without starting a world war?
Seeing the way you expressed yourself leads me to believe you'll do just fine here. If you browse through the forum you'll find this is one of the longstanding and ongoing debates which resurfaces periodically, encompassing both old and new voices. Passions run high when people think poodles may be harmed, which some strongly believe to be the case with the use of aversives. Others believe with equal fervor such training techniques are humane, expeditious and effective. This discussion always unfolds similarly; things gets heated, the word rude is put into the mix, people tap the "thanks" button to signify their support or allegiance to a viewpoint or member. Then the thread fizzles and people move on to other topics, until the next time--which can be months, more or less, until the debate reactivates.

In this instance, the debate was resurrected when the OP, a first-time dog owner, asked for help in trying to understand and stop his one year old spoo's jumping behavior. It appears the OP has gone away, or gone silent. This was the guy's second post, he introduced himself as the father of three sons so I'm pretty sure he's seen squabbles that rival the one here. I surmise he got lost or buried in all the words and fury. Who knows? I just hope he finds the guidance he and his family need to go on enjoying their young spoo. I do know this isn't likely to be the last time a discussion on training methods will go a bit off the rails. Just offering my two cents here, but I would advise you not to be in the least discouraged about the goings-on. You will come to see some members stick around for years, and many come and go. Now I suggest you go have some fun looking at all the photos of our amazing poodles!
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