Help help help - Page 2 - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!
   

Go Back   Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! > Poodle Training and Obedience > General Training and Obedience

General Training and Obedience All training and obedience questions, tips, articles go here

PoodleForum.com is the premier Poodle Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-15-2013, 06:43 PM   #11 (permalink)
Member
Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Poodle Type: None yet
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 37
Thanks: 4
Thanked 66 Times in 23 Posts
Default

We fostered a labradoodle pup last year who had this exact issue. He couldn't keep his mouth off of everyone. It was becoming a problem so we took him to obedience classes. Didn't work. Took him to a local behavior specialist.

While we were telling him about the problem, the puppy nipped his hand playfully but hard enough to scratch him. The behaviorist lunged at him and growled aggressively. Scared me and the puppy to death!

He explained its a learned behavior and one a mother will correct in that manner; a sharp movement and a growl.

I thought he was crazy but there was an instant change. When we went home, it was less frequent. When it happened, I tired the shocking lunge and growl. Within 2 days, it was over with. He never did it again.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App
__________________
Ella, 2 y/o Standard Poodle


Lexie, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Hudson, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Oklahoma is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Oklahoma For This Useful Post:
DQZNY (01-19-2013), julietcr1 (01-18-2013), petitpie (01-15-2013)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-16-2013, 05:11 AM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 29,859, Level: 100 Points: 29,859, Level: 100 Points: 29,859, Level: 100
Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6%
Last Achievements
 
lily cd re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Names of dogs: Lily and Peeves (GSD)
Poodle Type: standard
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,872
Thanks: 3,614
Thanked 4,827 Times in 2,428 Posts
Default

Sorry I didn't think about this last night, but Oklahoma's post made me think about it. How old was Leo when he was removed from his mom and litter mates? How big was the litter? If we are going to subscribe to the hypothesis that he hasn't learned bite inhibition in the normal developmental pattern, the answer to those questions becomes important.

Usually bite inhibition is learned through puppy play with litter mates and with mom. Oklahoma is right, when the puppies start to play rough and put their attention on mom she will correct them with a snap and harsh growl starting usually when they are about 5-6 weeks old as she starts to try to wean them. Also when puppies bite each other too hard they generally realize how much it hurts and in an effort not to get hurt, they stop hurting their brothers and sisters.

If he is from a small litter or for some reason was removed from the litter early (before 7-8 weeks) then the advise to get to a puppy class asap is really important. Bite inhibition is best taught by other puppies. The needle teeth hurt for precisely the reason of teaching it. schnauzerpoodle is right about immunity and being around other dogs.
__________________


Catherine
Lily AKC: CGC CD HIT CDX RN RA RE RAE RAE2 RAE3 RAE4 NA NAJ; APDT: RL-1; CPE: CL1-R, CL1-H, CL1-F, CL1-S, CL1
Peeves AKC: CGC BN RN
lily cd re is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 05:53 AM   #13 (permalink)
Member
Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Poodle Type: None yet
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 37
Thanks: 4
Thanked 66 Times in 23 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily cd re View Post
Sorry I didn't think about this last night, but Oklahoma's post made me think about it. How old was Leo when he was removed from his mom and litter mates? How big was the litter? If we are going to subscribe to the hypothesis that he hasn't learned bite inhibition in the normal developmental pattern, the answer to those questions becomes important.

Usually bite inhibition is learned through puppy play with litter mates and with mom. Oklahoma is right, when the puppies start to play rough and put their attention on mom she will correct them with a snap and harsh growl starting usually when they are about 5-6 weeks old as she starts to try to wean them. Also when puppies bite each other too hard they generally realize how much it hurts and in an effort not to get hurt, they stop hurting their brothers and sisters.

If he is from a small litter or for some reason was removed from the litter early (before 7-8 weeks) then the advise to get to a puppy class asap is really important. Bite inhibition is best taught by other puppies. The needle teeth hurt for precisely the reason of teaching it. schnauzerpoodle is right about immunity and being around other dogs.
I felt awful about doing it until the specialist we saw showed us footage of moms correcting their puppies. In most cases, the mom actually made contact briefly with her teeth as a warning. It made it easier for me to know I wasn't harming the puppy, but we were using the same principle to get the point across.

It was a weird feeling doing it, but it totally worked.

The rescue we were working with had marked the dog as not being able to be adopted to a home with kids or other pets. They were concerned the biting was going to be a permanent thing. Working with the specialist, we were able to change that so he could be adopted to a home with older children and other pets. Once that happened, he was adopted in 2 days. I spoke with his family a few weeks back and he's grown into a wonderful dog - no biting at all.

I obviously am not a behavior specialist, but I thought I'd share that experience. Our dogs are such complicated, wonderful creatures!
__________________
Ella, 2 y/o Standard Poodle


Lexie, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Hudson, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Oklahoma is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Oklahoma For This Useful Post:
DQZNY (01-19-2013), julietcr1 (01-18-2013), lily cd re (01-16-2013), papoodles (01-19-2013), petitpie (01-16-2013)
Old 01-16-2013, 05:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
Junior Member
Points: 668, Level: 13 Points: 668, Level: 13 Points: 668, Level: 13
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Thanks: 37
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Thank you so much everyone for all the helpful advice. I do go to dog star daily and I have tried the ignore tactic, which does not seem to help, or at least I have not seen any noticable change. At first I thought that it was working, but Leo quickly adjusted to this.

Leo was 8 weeks old when we brought him home and he was from a litter of 6 pups.

I definately am going to puppy class, the next one starts up in February. Leo's second parvo shot is on January 31st. I am following the Jean Dodd's vaccination schedule and so that is why I skipped the class this month.

I am seriously considering the lunge and growl. What kind of growl is it? How exactly is it done? So Leo is biting my arm and I lunge towards him and deep growl?? Do I make contact with him to spook?

Wow, if this isnt teething, I am really really worried. My arms and feet look like a person who has been in a fight with a cat carrying a razor.

I really want to try a lot of things with Leo like agility and maybe dock diving. But I have got to get his biting under control.
DQZNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 06:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
Member
Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Poodle Type: None yet
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 37
Thanks: 4
Thanked 66 Times in 23 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DQZNY View Post
Thank you so much everyone for all the helpful advice. I do go to dog star daily and I have tried the ignore tactic, which does not seem to help, or at least I have not seen any noticable change. At first I thought that it was working, but Leo quickly adjusted to this.

Leo was 8 weeks old when we brought him home and he was from a litter of 6 pups.

I definately am going to puppy class, the next one starts up in February. Leo's second parvo shot is on January 31st. I am following the Jean Dodd's vaccination schedule and so that is why I skipped the class this month.

I am seriously considering the lunge and growl. What kind of growl is it? How exactly is it done? So Leo is biting my arm and I lunge towards him and deep growl?? Do I make contact with him to spook?

Wow, if this isnt teething, I am really really worried. My arms and feet look like a person who has been in a fight with a cat carrying a razor.

I really want to try a lot of things with Leo like agility and maybe dock diving. But I have got to get his biting under control.
We world told that the lunge and growl should be sudden and large enough to startle the puppy. It should catch the pup off guard enough that it stops what it's going and backs away. They should feel like it's a correction. You don't have to make contact, just lunge at them and make a low, angry growling sound. LOL. Sounds silly to explain, but I kind of roared like I thought a T-rex would. He told us don't be afraid to make contact, in that you assert your space and push the puppy away. There's no spanking or anything, but you can assert control over your "bubble".

It showed results pretty quickly. At first, the pup didn't respond to my partner. He had to really up his shock value with the lunge and work on making a more booming growl.

The trainer did tell us that it doesn't work on every puppy. It's worth a shot.
__________________
Ella, 2 y/o Standard Poodle


Lexie, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Hudson, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Oklahoma is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Oklahoma For This Useful Post:
DQZNY (01-17-2013), julietcr1 (01-18-2013)
Old 01-16-2013, 06:34 PM   #16 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
msminnamouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Ginger (my service dog) and Angel
Poodle Type: Standard, Mini
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 230
Thanked 345 Times in 167 Posts
Default

It's really hard to tell you what's going wrong without seeing what you're doing. Can you post a video?

The humping and the extreme nipping sounds like your puppy is way over stimulated. You need a relaxation protocol in place and it should also really help with the nipping. If a dog is over threshold, it's hard for them to learn anything since it's mostly reacting at that point, not thinking. You need to watch him and end the biting before he loses his head and is at the point where he's leaving marks. When it starts to get rough, you need to put an immediate stop to it. It's time for a time out in his crate with a Kong or a chew or a chew toy. The Kong or chew is important. It keeps the crate from gaining a negative association, it makes him use his brain to get the food out, and it requires calm interaction to utilize the Kong/chew. It's not punishment (it is technically but that's not the point), the goal is to get him to calm down and he should see that hard biting means the fun play with the human is ending and he's redirected to a calm activity. Obviously, you can't just turn your back on a persistent puppy who continues to gnaw on your legs. He doesn't seem to understand that. So you have to remove him before he leaves marks. The crate should become a place for him to go to relax, amongst other things.

It can also help to ask for an incompatible behavior. At random times throughout the day, ask for him to lie down. Ask for it when he's active or non-active. Practice it and reward it SO much that he'll be willing to drop whatever he's doing to lie down at the drop of a hat. It'll be hard for him to mouth on you if he's lying down. And the act of controlling himself to lie down should help calm him down. I do NOT advocate forcing him to lie down, only teaching him and teaching it so well that he chooses to do it. Lying down on cue should be more rewarding than anything else he might be doing.

Also you need to make sure to reinforce calm play so he knows what IS okay. And don't give up on redirecting him to a chew toy. He needs an outlet for hard biting. He needs to learn that only a chew toy is appropriate for this. Reinforce this also. Reinforce him when he's doing a desirable behavior and make it worth his while to continue.

When you say that redirecting him onto a toy isn't working, what do you mean by that? How isn't it working? I have a feeling that you might not be consistent enough in your efforts or have given it enough practice. You should have toys EVERYWHERE and even carry one on you so you can always have one ready. Even on walks. He can learn to carry a toy, happily taking out his chewing tendencies on it instead of on you.

I can't advocate lunging at and growling at your puppy. Just because some mother dogs will do it doesn't mean that it makes much sense for humans to pretend to be a dog. Also, a human mimicking a dog doesn't look or sound or smell the same to a dog as a dog being a dog.

I've given a lot of different options. Hopefully something will help although a video would still be very instrumental in diagnosing what's going wrong.

If all else fails, I can give you a referral to a really good trainer in your area. This is something that you should get in control of now. It's not fair to the other puppies for him to practice this hard biting on them in puppy classes. It's not their responsibility or their owner's to put up with this degree of bite force. Bite inhibition is important to learn from other puppies but not if he's biting hard enough to break your skin. He'll just do the same to other puppies and mess them up.
__________________
msminnamouse is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to msminnamouse For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (01-17-2013), DQZNY (01-17-2013), lily cd re (01-17-2013), papoodles (01-19-2013)
Old 01-16-2013, 06:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
Member
Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Poodle Type: None yet
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 37
Thanks: 4
Thanked 66 Times in 23 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by msminnamouse View Post
I can't advocate lunging at and growling at your puppy. Just because some mother dogs will do it doesn't mean that it makes much sense for humans to pretend to be a dog. Also, a human mimicking a dog doesn't look or sound or smell the same to a dog as a dog being a dog.
I'm just sharing what worked for us with a difficult puppy, when obedience didn't work. We tried all of the "normal" options.

When it comes to helping a puppy find a way of adjusting and becoming a healthy and happy member of a family, it's worth thinking outside of the box.
__________________
Ella, 2 y/o Standard Poodle


Lexie, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Hudson, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Oklahoma is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oklahoma For This Useful Post:
DQZNY (01-17-2013)
Old 01-17-2013, 05:55 AM   #18 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 29,859, Level: 100 Points: 29,859, Level: 100 Points: 29,859, Level: 100
Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6%
Last Achievements
 
lily cd re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Names of dogs: Lily and Peeves (GSD)
Poodle Type: standard
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,872
Thanks: 3,614
Thanked 4,827 Times in 2,428 Posts
Default

While I am glad that the "maternal correction" concept worked for your fostered labradoodle Oklahoma, I hope that the OP will work on other strategies first. As you point out what works for one dog may not work for another. Labs tend to be somewhat hard headed in my experience (which is I guess part of why I don't have one). The lab in the dog you worked with may have been what responded to that technique. But each dog is different. If they all responded the same ay to the same situation, training them would be a snap and we would all have perfect dogs. Poodles tend to be very sensitive dogs. Many even shut down just from raised voices. I wouldn't want to see the OP end up damaging their relationship with their pup by using a scare strategy.

DQZNY, your situation sounds very similar to my experience with Lily when she was a puppy. She came home at 7 weeks and was from a litter of 8. So I don't think there are problems with puppy development at work here. Puppies from very small litters or removed too early sometimes don't learn early developmental lessons well. I tried many things to get Lily to stop biting at my hands, feet and clothes. She literally would attack me every time I came home when she was little. My boyfriend was at home when Lily and Peeves were pups, so she was often loose when I got home. I realized that I was tense when I walked into the house with wondering what I would find and what was going to happen. That attitude made crazy things happen. Once I relaxed, she relaxed. I won't say it was perfect, but it was infinitely better.

Lily is a social status seeker. She can be bossy with most every other dog she meets. She can even make dogs feel displaced in their homes. But she loves people and is very sensitive to harsh voices. She immediately drops her tail and gets a worried look on her face if I speak harshly to her. She will even go off to one or the other of two spots where I put her for time outs if she finds my tone very severe. Please be patient with your puppy. You want to have a lifetime loving trusting two way relationship.

I think that once you start doing some serious training using positive methods you will find things improve dramatically. Don't wait until your class starts to work on things like sit, down, come, stay, etc. You can also consider teaching some tricks, but keep them quiet ones (like play dead). As you can see from my signature, I do a lot of performance events with Lily. Training for them has made a very special bond between us.
__________________


Catherine
Lily AKC: CGC CD HIT CDX RN RA RE RAE RAE2 RAE3 RAE4 NA NAJ; APDT: RL-1; CPE: CL1-R, CL1-H, CL1-F, CL1-S, CL1
Peeves AKC: CGC BN RN

Last edited by lily cd re; 01-17-2013 at 06:33 AM. Reason: added something
lily cd re is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lily cd re For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (01-17-2013), DQZNY (01-19-2013)
Old 01-17-2013, 06:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
Member
Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14 Points: 741, Level: 14
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Poodle Type: None yet
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 37
Thanks: 4
Thanked 66 Times in 23 Posts
Default

I think you're stretching the idea of correction, by considering it a scare strategy.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But I also don't subscribe to the idea that "one size fits all" concept when it comes to training dogs, much as I don't believe that approach works when dealing with people.

You could go to ten of the most successful and well-respected dog trainers in the biz with the same issue and chances are you'd get 8-10 different answers on how to resolve it. Who decides which method is right? And does it matter, if the dog isn't harmed and is able to overcome a challenge?

I've spent 10 years fostering dogs that other people were willing to write off and, in some cases, ready to destroy because of bad manners, nipping, etc. From my own experience, you always start with the basics: obedience, redirection and all of the normal processes on straightening out behavior, which is what I've said.

But there ARE cases when it takes something beyond that. And that's okay too. And it's even more okay if it helps a dog fit into a family that loves it.

I don't think there needs to be judgment either. This is a community that's great because there are so many voices here, sharing so many different perspectives.

At the end of the day, we all make the best decisions we can for our fur kids. And that should be something we can all agree on and get behind.
__________________
Ella, 2 y/o Standard Poodle


Lexie, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Hudson, 4 y/o Mini Schnauzer
Oklahoma is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Oklahoma For This Useful Post:
DQZNY (01-19-2013), julietcr1 (01-18-2013)
Old 01-18-2013, 05:06 AM   #20 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 12,006, Level: 75 Points: 12,006, Level: 75 Points: 12,006, Level: 75
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
julietcr1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Names of dogs: Sushi and Aki
Poodle Type: Standard
Location: Gatineau, Québec
Posts: 212
Thanks: 166
Thanked 279 Times in 129 Posts
Default

Maybe if the loud "ouch" did not work the growl will not work either because it's a surprising loud sound to. I agree dogs know we are not dogs and that growling at them will not “fool” them. I think the reason growling works is the same as why a loud "ouch" will work with most dogs : A loud surprising sound that stops the dog from doing what he is doing.

When obedience, redirection and all other basic methods do not work including the "ouch" I try a little blow at the face. This is not a correction, it's a game! You create a surprising event to stop the dog from doing the bad behavior so he can get a smile and a reward. A little surprising sound or event can happened anytime in a dog's life, we are just creating it. If the blowing doesn't work I try the water spray, I never had to use the water spray with my dogs but I used it with my cats and with one fostered rescued dog who was obsessively barking at us all the time to get our attention. After 2 days of the bark-spray game with me she gave up;o)

I definitely agree with Oklahoma that “When it comes to helping a puppy find a way of adjusting and becoming a healthy and happy member of a family, it's worth thinking outside of the box.”

Standard poodles, like any other breed, have different personnalities so something that will work with one spoo will not necessary work with another spoo.

I think we are lucky to have a forum like this where we can share all our experience. I also think we are really lucky to have all those different options. I remember a time when their was only one way : Correction of the bad behaviors.
__________________
julietcr1 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to julietcr1 For This Useful Post:
DQZNY (01-19-2013)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:08 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
All (C) PoodleForum.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com