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Old 01-03-2013, 01:40 PM   #31 (permalink)
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You are not simply "giving your case". You're resorting to ad-hominem insults and cursing. It pretty much devalues anything you could possibly have to add to this conversation as, in my opinion, it bears poorly on your character and decredits what you think you may have witnessed. Especially as what you say doesn't constitute reality.

1. We've got two people now who were witness to two separate puppies screaming during their electric fence training. People putting electric shock to dogs which could, in many people's opinions and many a rescue, judge you unfit to own a dog. This is opinion, I'm not stating mine, merely that you say making a puppy scream makes someone unfit to own a dog and the same could be leveled back at you.

2. Dogs are associative learners and can easily associate the shock with what they're near or looking at, including other dogs and people in the distance and nearby.

3. Animal control across the county would beg to differ with you that electric fences keep many dogs in being that they find so many with their collars still on.

4. It's not just two people who nay-said electric fencing.

5. You presume much to decide for your dog(s) that how you experience something is exactly the same for your dog.

If the OP or anyone else wants my sources, they're free to PM me. There are plenty. I'm pretty much down with this thread and back and forth with you. You very much love your fence, we know. It's up to everyone to decide what they feel their dogs should be subject to or not, as according to the law.

The information has been presented, and I have more upon private message, and now the decision is in the hands of the beholder. But maybe some more insults and cursing will alter some opinions more in your favor?
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:11 PM   #32 (permalink)
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On second thought, I'll just link the sources here. We're big girls and big boys here. Anyone can skip over this particular thread if not interested.

I'll stick mostly right on topic and omit links regarding solely training and not used as boundaries minus a couple. Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Say No to Shock Collars
Articles: Why I REALLY Hate Electronic Shock (Invisible) Fences by Pamela Dennison at Positive Motivation Dog Training!
Invisible fencing doesn't protect dogs | Gail Fisher, All Dogs Gym & Inn | Dog, His, I
Dog killed by shock fencing DDB: Managing Your Stress: No Chained Dogs!
Invisible Fences: Not a Recommended Solution
Courteous Canine: The Visible Dangers of Invisible Fencing!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zuomxdkngo...eNotAFence.pdf
The Ethics of Shock-Collar Containment Fences for Dogs and Cats | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Victoria Stilwell: Say "no" to electronic fencing - New York small dogs | Examiner.com
http://www.dogexpert.com/Bio/Electronic%20fences.pdf
Not painful, right? How to Beat Pain - Shock collar excerpt - YouTube
Explaining better than I how dogs are associative learners: What are the Implications of Using Training Techniques Which Induce Fear or Pain in Dogs?


I think that's enough for a public posting but can dig up yet many more if PMed for them.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:13 PM   #33 (permalink)
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msminnamouse

sorry u think my "language" when referring to a person who is letting their puppy scream is harsh.

Whether my language makes me credible to you or not means nothing to me bc I have seen you argue repeatedly on this forum with others so your argument also doesn't mean much to me.

You are seriously missing my point that I have agreed that any training that causes a puppy to scream is WRONG .... Should i say it again? ... any training that causes a puppy to scream is wrong!!!!! how many times have i said it now ???? so all I can deduce is that u want to argue just as you have with many others....I repeat YET AGAIN.... I have witnessed with my own two eyes many times over in my own neighborhood ...friends and neighbors with my same experience.... I am sorry if that upsets u but its the truth..... There are not a bunch of hard ass mean humans that live here that thrive on making puppies scream.... omg .... How many times to I have to agree that if someone's dog is screaming or breaking through or confused and getting shocked repeatedly or attacking or any of the other things you said THEN IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THAT PERSON OR THEIR DOG! You are fighting with yourself!!!! I haven't disagreed EXCEPT to say that I have seen many "cases" or whatever u want to call them myself .... daily for that matter bc i know these people and out of all the ones I PERSONALLY know of ONLY ONE didnt work out..... He was a chihuahua named taco...he did not scream or get aggressive or attack.... He just would walk right through it like it wasn't there and run off.... It just didnt work for him so the company refunded their money.

It IS a good alternative for many people.... it is NOT FOR EVERYONE! No different than all the other training tools out there.... Some people shouldn't use them PERIOD.

DONE!





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Old 01-03-2013, 02:19 PM   #34 (permalink)
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You are preaching to the choir.. I do research for a living....real research studies... Not opinions.... people's opinions are not research....

Wow are you reading my posts ? Did I say a shock "couldn't hurt" no I did not .... I said if you have turned the shock up to a level of screaming pain THAT IS WRONG!!!! These collars are not one size fits all there are many levels of correction from none to high..... If u turn it up to the point that a dog is screaming .... THAT IS WRONG!!!!!

unbelievable


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Old 01-03-2013, 03:08 PM   #35 (permalink)
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There are also plenty of case studies, of which I'll post tomorrow since I'm not feeling well so I guess I'll start with your posts today and save the studies for tomorrow.

Quote:
I hate when people knock and are nasty about something they don't know.
That's a presumptive claim. You know nothing about me or the others on this forum and their degree of knowledge about shock fencing. Those of us who were attacked or have had our dogs attacked by dogs running through their shock fencing know that they're unreliable.

I never knock anything without thoroughly understanding and educating myself on it first. This particular topic is about shock fencing but the same principals apply. Although it sounds like you already did, you can search via my username for my lengthy, sourced posts about shock collars. I could pretty much write a dissertation with all my research and knowledge on shock collars and shock fencing. It is all my research and knowledge which allows me to make the informed decision not to shock my dogs and not to recommend shocking dogs to training clients and adopters. I have also had to train my fair share of dogs who became aggressive due to their shock fencing. Take away the shock and it's magical how benign strangers in the distance can become with some CC/DS.

Quote:
Puppies do not scream during training because there is zero shock during training
That may have been the case with your very specific trainer, but that is most frequently not the case, as has already been discussed. A puppy screaming is a puppy screaming.

Quote:
A responsible and good trainer would never shock a dog to screams.... in fact they look for very subtle reactions like a shake as if they are shaking off water during a bath
A responsible and good trainer would never cause enough undue stress to a dog to make them enact a stress signal, such as shaking off, which by the way, is not subtle. That is not a responsible or good goal.

Quote:
I love my dogs with every fiber of my being. They are loved and spoiled as much as I can afford.
I would hate to see how you'd treat a dog you don't like then. I love my dogs too. Therefore, I wouldn't condone applying an electric shocking device to them.

Quote:
We walk 2-4 miles almost everyday but I wanted them to be able to enjoy the yard off leash and not have them chase a deer or run in the street unexpectedly. As I said before we are not allowed a fence.
That's nice. A shock, or being taught shockless boundaries, or even that evil tie out line? Choices, choices. Personally, as my pet's guardian, I would choose the latter two. My dogs remain in my unfenced front yard no matter what may beckon to them.

Quote:
I haven't experienced that and I would never allow that to happen with or to my dogs....
Quite easy for you to say but it's another thing to be there to supervise and know about it. Most people don't want to fight with their neighbors. Maybe you're one of the very rare few who supervise them out in the yard, in which case, the shock is superflous and you might as well have them on a long line or teach them a dynamite recall and shockless boundaries.

Quote:
Quite frankly for someone to pass judgement on me or my dogs situation sight unseen and without knowing me is close minded.....or just likes to find things to argue about on forums... Either way It doesn't offend me and actually kinda makes me laugh
You might find shocking dogs funny. I asure you, plenty don't share your sense of humor. And wanting no part of electric shock for our dogs doesn't make us close minded, only more mindful of how we treat those at our mercy.

Quote:
That person should not be a dog owner ...
We also already discussed what constitutes who should be allowed to own dogs in other people's opinions, previously.

"Nobody has angry crazy scared dogs getting shocked all the time.... "

Yes, after a certain amount of time, dogs learn to deal with the hand they've been dealt. You could say the same about anything that involves desensitization. But I wonder, how well do you know how to read body language of dogs? And why would they be bike aggressive unless a bike happened to chance by most times that they were shocked?

Quote:
sorry u think my "language" when referring to a person who is letting their puppy scream is harsh.
No, not just regarding a person letting their puppy scream. You used it towards anyone not siding with your view.

You talking about wanting to see evidence, but all you have is your neighborhood of shock fencing dogs to reference. No videos either, no testimonials, nothing. Just your word. You say I lack any real evidence and while I'm going to post studies tomorrow, world renowned domestic dog behavior experts' testimonials does stand for something. I'd like to see your hard evidence, please.

Quote:
If u turn it up to the point that a dog is screaming .... THAT IS WRONG!!!!!
Yet it is so right to shock the dogs that you claim to love? There's a great gap in your logic.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:02 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msminnamouse View Post
There are also plenty of case studies, of which I'll post tomorrow since I'm not feeling well so I guess I'll start with your posts today and save the studies for tomorrow.



That's a presumptive claim. You know nothing about me or the others on this forum and their degree of knowledge about shock fencing. Those of us who were attacked or have had our dogs attacked by dogs running through their shock fencing know that they're unreliable.

I never knock anything without thoroughly understanding and educating myself on it first. This particular topic is about shock fencing but the same principals apply. Although it sounds like you already did, you can search via my username for my lengthy, sourced posts about shock collars. I could pretty much write a dissertation with all my research and knowledge on shock collars and shock fencing. It is all my research and knowledge which allows me to make the informed decision not to shock my dogs and not to recommend shocking dogs to training clients and adopters. I have also had to train my fair share of dogs who became aggressive due to their shock fencing. Take away the shock and it's magical how benign strangers in the distance can become with some CC/DS.



That may have been the case with your very specific trainer, but that is most frequently not the case, as has already been discussed. A puppy screaming is a puppy screaming.



A responsible and good trainer would never cause enough undue stress to a dog to make them enact a stress signal, such as shaking off, which by the way, is not subtle. That is not a responsible or good goal.



I would hate to see how you'd treat a dog you don't like then. I love my dogs too. Therefore, I wouldn't condone applying an electric shocking device to them.



That's nice. A shock, or being taught shockless boundaries, or even that evil tie out line? Choices, choices. Personally, as my pet's guardian, I would choose the latter two. My dogs remain in my unfenced front yard no matter what may beckon to them.



Quite easy for you to say but it's another thing to be there to supervise and know about it. Most people don't want to fight with their neighbors. Maybe you're one of the very rare few who supervise them out in the yard, in which case, the shock is superflous and you might as well have them on a long line or teach them a dynamite recall and shockless boundaries.



You might find shocking dogs funny. I asure you, plenty don't share your sense of humor. And wanting no part of electric shock for our dogs doesn't make us close minded, only more mindful of how we treat those at our mercy.



We also already discussed what constitutes who should be allowed to own dogs in other people's opinions, previously.

"Nobody has angry crazy scared dogs getting shocked all the time.... "

Yes, after a certain amount of time, dogs learn to deal with the hand they've been dealt. You could say the same about anything that involves desensitization. But I wonder, how well do you know how to read body language of dogs? And why would they be bike aggressive unless a bike happened to chance by most times that they were shocked?



No, not just regarding a person letting their puppy scream. You used it towards anyone not siding with your view.

You talking about wanting to see evidence, but all you have is your neighborhood of shock fencing dogs to reference. No videos either, no testimonials, nothing. Just your word. You say I lack any real evidence and while I'm going to post studies tomorrow, world renowned domestic dog behavior experts' testimonials does stand for something. I'd like to see your hard evidence, please.



Yet it is so right to shock the dogs that you claim to love? There's a great gap in your logic.
Whether u want to or not you are still agreeing with me ... And beyond that u are making things up just to be argumentative ... Have fun with that..

Your comment about how I treat my dogs is At Best a very childish "my daddy is better then your daddy" type comment .... Very Telling.... I feel sorry for u and for your dogs for having to live with such an angry individual.


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Old 01-03-2013, 04:20 PM   #37 (permalink)
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We are here to answers questions, and to give advice. We are not here to shame anyone, or to lead any campaigns against anyone. I understand having conviction, and you can demonstrate it by stating your point.

The best you can do is put forth your opinion, experience, and to call upon any credible sources that you may have and hope that after an inquirer reads all the responses that your views resonate with theirs and that they choose to make the same choice.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:57 AM   #38 (permalink)
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In our neighborhood HOA we have told owners to watch their pets even when out with the invisible fence. The charging dogs were scaring the bejeezus out of pedestrians. Meanwhile, we got Max and have had the most trouble finding a fence contractor to put a fence in. Amazing how no one will ever show up...
Anyway, we use the tie out method with us watching from window. Lots of trips to dog park and lots of walks. My biggest regret is that I want another Spoo one day and the tie out won't work.
Have enjoyed this topic, my husband and I have discussed this but sort of figured that Spoos were too sensitive for invisible fences.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:32 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msminnamouse View Post
Yet it is so right to shock the dogs that you claim to love? There's a great gap in your logic.
I think that this is what it really comes down to for many people. And people get very passionate about it.

Personally I do not have a problem shocking a dog that I love if it has a clear and distinct goal and it works. It may be a shortcut, it may not work for all dogs – but positive reinforcement it not enough for all dogs either.

I also have no problem having a vet anesthetize my dog, slit her open, and completely remove her uterus and ovaries - because it has a clear and distinct goal and it works. I truly feel that my dog would be healthier and cause her less pain if I committed to keeping her intact and committed to keeping her confined when in season. But I am too lazy to do that. I don’t want to have to avoid parks and public places when she is in season, watch her every second when I open to back door to ensure that a loose male doesn’t get into our fenced yard, reschedule vacations because she can’t be kenneled, etc.

So if a shock collar is what it takes to stop excessive barking, provide correction as to boundaries or keeping a dog in a yard, or get a dogs attention in the field, then I do not think that the mere use of a negative reinforcement method is enough to make a person a bad dog owner- there are far worse things in this world then a difference in training styles.

And I see no gap in logic in using a negative reinforcement method – including shocking- when used appropriately to keep a dog safe, be it from running loose or homelessness and euthanasia due to behavioral problems. It has everything to do with ensuring a dog a good future and nothing to do with ”not loving them.”
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:25 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcoislandmom View Post
Can I hear what you have experienced using the Invisible Fence? I have a 10 mo old puppy. Thanks.
I see this thread became nasty like so many other threads here...so I didnt read on but thought Id put my experience with invisible fence. Before I had my poodles I had a doberman. We bought a house in an area that didnt allow fences...so most everyone had invisible fences. We got one too..

It did work but for me I wouldnt do it again..The training period was stressful on my doberman. It only took a couple of days but he was very unsure of where was ok to go in the yard! We had the trainer come and work with us and we went thru all the steps..but the dog would only get off the deck and potty about 2 feet away from the deck..he got better over time as we had the house with that fence for several years..I ended up NOT having the shock on but just the warning beep in case et every malfunctioned..and that is all it took for him to turn around..but we also never left him outside unattended for more than a few minutes..he, like my poodles, preferred to be with his people :-)

Ours was only in my back yard so he was not allowed in the front where the side walks were and cars were..we never had problems with him charging anyone...but I have been concerned about other dogs breaking thru their fences as they do come running fast like they will run thru the invisible fence..fortunately Ive not had a dog run thru one and bother us.

The last problem with the invisible fence is that other dogs, children, animals all can get into your yard..we never had any issues but I always worried..I have a friend with a boxer and great dane..he has invisible fence in the back yard to contain the dogs in one area to go potty as he has little kids and didnt want the dogs to potty in the childrens play area..

bottom line for me I wouldnt do it again..but it works for some.

And btw we ALL put the collar on our necks and administered a shock...me, my dh and my daughter..as we were worried it would cause undo pain..it was like a jolt..but not painful at all. There are different settings one can use too.
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