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Old 01-19-2013, 05:27 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Lou... I'm glad that you had success as well. I agree that a prong collar could cause abuse. I was taught how to use it correctly and then I also spent quite a few hours of research on it. I actually found many trainers who use it and some that have saved thousands of dogs from shelters that would had been put to death because they were aggressive.

Lily... thank you. I agree that tools can be misused but as long as they are used correctly they can be a great help in training your dog. I did a lot of research on this forum about prong collars and found some pictures that someone put up of dogs with punctures in their necks. That was a very good example of their misuse. I am sure that kind of damage was caused by dog owners who tie their dog up with with one on or something terrible like that. I also admire positive only trainers however I also believe not one training method fits all dogs. For example, when I would redirect with a toy, my dog seemed to see it as a reward FOR biting.

CT... The prong collar is not something I use all the time. Maybe 15 minutes a day. Millie knows when it is on and when it is off but listens to me most of the time and rarely slips up and bites. When she does it isn't with any force.

Msminnamouse... it wasn't a bother to ask for advice. I was using all the methods and so was my husband. I asked about this when my girl was 15 weeks and she is now 19 weeks. That is four weeks and I keep track of my training. I worked 2-3 hours a day with lots of breaks and nap time in between . In my opinion that is a lot. Yes my trainer could have made that up however the hundreds of titles his clients win at akc trials and the numerous referrals have proved that he is trustworthy to me. I also did a lot of research on the proper use of prong collars. And found a trainer that has helped thousands of people with their dogs and rehomed aggressive dogs with the use of fair corrections. I wanted training I could use so that my dog could gain more freedom quickly. My dog spent a lot more time around new people and in public in the past week which she loves after just 6 days of 15 minute sessions than she could before because people were avoiding her. This gives us more time for clicker training and games. Thank you for your well wishes.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:54 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Positive reinforcement isn't comprised of one method.... Saving shelter dogs isn't a special feat being that the vast majority lack any training. What professional trainer hasn't saved countless rescues?

Four weeks of what was most likely poor training isn't a lot of time. Maybe you would have been better off with a toy robot dog since you only seem to want instant results with minimal effort.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:26 AM   #53 (permalink)
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You're correct that is isn't comprised of one method, if my comments made it sound like that, I did not intend them to. I am using positive training as a general term to encompass all the methods used.

I guess we disagree on the amount of training that is considered 'a lot'. I would like results in what I consider a reasonable amount of time(four weeks) for a behavior I feel is not acceptable in my dog. I do not want a robot dog as you say and while I feel that comment was rude and unjustified I am going to remember that you are behind a computer screen and probably not a rude person in general. However, I would like to defend my awesome dog and let you know that she is in fact, nothing like a robot. She knows when I want her to do something when I give her a command. When I say "break" or "ok" she knows that she may go about whatever she was doing. I never have or never will expect her to be perfect. I will however, expect her to have basic manners.

You were not there while I trained my dog, so while you may think I used poor training methods, you do not know how I trained. You also do not know how many dogs I have trained in the past and how well or, as you say, poor I was in my training. You were not there, so you really do not know.

I should also include that while you are right, training any shelter dog may not be a major feat, I wasn't clear in my statement. The dogs they were training were aggressive dogs, about to be put to death, many of them trainers had turned away, saying they were hopeless. You could say that all those trainers who turned them away were using poor methods, however I do not believe that every trainer who cannot help a dog is using poor methods. I do not believe every trainer can help every dog or that every dog can respond to one method of training.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:53 AM   #54 (permalink)
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CT- I also wanted to include that I am still seeing both trainers. I think it is really good for Millie to learn in different ways and in different enviornments. Both trainers have been wonderful with her
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:37 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Milliesmom, I know you want the best for your puppy. Prong collars are controversial and I honestly don't know much about them. I did do a little research on the Internet and found this blog by two vets. One uses prong collars on her dog one does not believe in them. The vet that is pro prong does not believe they should be used with puppies. Have you had a discussion with your vet to trainers about the use of a prong collar with your puppy? Here is the link:

Tails of Seattle | Veterinary Q&A: Prong collars are safe — fact or fiction? | Seattle Times Newspaper

Please understand I am not criticizing. I can tell you want the best for your dog. I actually had a similiar conversation with my vet but I was deciding between a buckle collar or a harness as toy's necks are very delicate.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:15 PM   #56 (permalink)
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CT... I did not think you were criticizing at all. I read the article and I appreciate it coming from two vets. For me the prong collar was used for her biting. I did get opinions from a vet, four reputable trainers, two whom do not use them, and a groomer that grooms many dogs who are trained with a prong collar. All of them thought it was fine. Although I will get another opinion from another vet. I also found a study done in Germany of post mortem dogs and found that dogs who use a prong collar had less damage than even a regular collar. They did a study of all collars.

And thank you I do want the best for my dog
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:13 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Wow, you really did your research. I hope that her biting issue will soon be behind you.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:31 PM   #58 (permalink)
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We adopted a grown spoo without any obediencetraning at all, he had been living in a dog pound with other dogs his whole life(he was 2 years old when we got him). Getting a high degree of obedience isnt that complicated, but it does require perserverance. We spend alot of time training, with positive reiforcement only.

We did go a few courses with him, at different dog trainers. But there isnt any magic way with "super dog trainers", the only thing that works is hard work, hard work and more hard work, and then some more hard work again.

Me and my whife have spent alot of time on tightening the band between us and our spoo. Since i work shifts he is never alone, this is proably one key factor. He is alowed to sleep in our bed, often with his head on my shoulder. We never use punishments or corrective training, a simple "no!" is the only thing required when he looks at us for permission to chase after a cat for example. This has made him a submissive pack member in our familly, always following us around waiting for something fun to happen. Since we dont have any kids we can give him 100% attention.

It is often forgotten, but a spoo is a predator with 20kg of muscle and 30mm fangs, discipline is essential. Just as when wolves were domesticated in sweden 10.000bc, he keeps me and my whife safe and warm(wakes us in the middle of the night when someone is approaching, keeps goats/sheep/livestock away from us when we are hiking, keeps us warm when we sleep, and fetches things/turn on lights. And we provide him with food, shelter and love.





There is no simple way, its just about the amount of effort you put into it. Its just with kids, if you give them a warm and loving environment with positive atmosphere they grow up alot better than if you spank them and punish them. CT is best used on toy robot dogs because it wont cause any damage. Use it on a real dog and it will become agressive, leading to a need for harder punishment every day and presumably ending in a 20kg predatore with 30mm fangs that really hates you(not good!)

Something that makes me laugh everytime is when im out walking with Bambi and see someone with a loose dog thats not comming back to their owner, and the owner is yelling and sounding really mad. As the owner gets more and more angry the dog goes farther and farther away. When i call on bambi he comes to me because he knows that i will give him a treat or a backrubb, and play with him.

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Old 01-23-2013, 10:26 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Milliesmom, I am so excited you are having great success with your prong collar! As for the rest of you so called, positive only people, you guys could not be more wrong. I have had plenty of success with all three of my poodles with a prong, none of them have turned aggressive. As a matter of fact, my sister has a yellow lab, they let sleep with them, loves them, wants to bite everyone else. I go to plenty of rallies where I see these food geeks giving cheese and all sorts of treats to clog their dogs up. they get into the ring and do a couple of cute tricks and then start wondering where is my food. Yah, food only is stupid. I would not call a prong collar negative, it is a tool that teaches dogs boundaries. I hope all of you people using prongs keep up the good work, and do not let a few stupid people get you down. Keep at it and keep your dogs safe.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:27 AM   #60 (permalink)
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--CT, spanking your kids is good for them.
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