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15 week old puppy biting and growling

42K views 70 replies 19 participants last post by  msminnamouse 
#1 ·
I need some help with my spoo. She is 15 weeks old and we have had her since she was 7 weeks old(I know now that I should have waited until 8 weeks...didnt know then). We have had problems with her biting since she was about 8 weeks old. We have tried everything in the book but now that she has really started teething she is even worse. She bites hard even after 8 weeks of bite inhibition training. We have taken her around many people and she bites all of them. So she cannot even be properly socialized because we have to pull her away from everyone because she wont stop biting them HARD! We are taking her to a puppy class starting Jan 3rd. I am only taking her because I am hoping being around other dogs and people will calm her down. Other than the biting she is perfect, she is pretty much housebroke, knows sit, down, come, and turn in a circle. Will this ever end?! I am afraid she will never be reliable around other people! HELP!!!!
 
#27 ·
Lou is back!! Hair hair is soooo long LOL her face looks funny, big head! LOL - way too much hair haha, so happy to have her here and being even more obedient, and they said she is totally not afraid of dogs anymore!!! Played with several of them at once! And not jumping on people at all so far :-D


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#28 ·
I want to say another thank you to the original poster and the advice. I was just about to come on the forum to let off some steam/seek some advice about biting.

Wade is 2 months old and we've made a lot of progress with bite inhibition when it comes to hands (he still mouths, but it's better) using Dr. Dunbar's method, but now he has moved on to biting our LEGS! Just this morning he ruined my favorite pair of stretch pants while we were playing fetch in the yard. It's always when he is wound up - he'll just lunge at our legs and bite and it HURTS. I always say "OUCH" or "NO" and give him a stern look. Today he was so bad that I brought him right inside and put him in his pen.

I don't think I missed this anywhere on the thread, but has anyone used the "bad noise" method for biting or other bad behaviors? I've heard about filling a can with coins and throwing it on the ground whenever they do something you don't want them to be doing. There is also some loud spray called something like "Stop It" spray.

Thanks again for great advice.
 
#30 ·
I wouldn't use the "bad noise" - too much risk of really scaring a puppy for me, but I have to admit that when Poppy started the fun game of let's-bite-Mum's-bum-when-she-is-not-looking-and-see-how-high-she-jumps, and ignoring wasn't working because it always took me by surprise, and it is very difficult not to jump and squeal when those needle teeth nip a tender part of your anatomy, I eventually turned around and ROARED at her, in my biggest, deepest, maternal dog voice! But she was quite a bit older than your pup, and I also took care to manage things so that she got very few opportunities to play the game - I'd watch her when she got over excited, and play something calming instead; I taught her not to crowd me at the top of the stairs; I watched her like a hawk around other people, and called her away at the first hint she might be getting excited enough to nip.

With a very young pup like yours (at 8 weeks he really is a baby and you want to make sure that he has as few scary experiences as possible) I would focus on management. I would avoid wearing anything valuable that he might tear, or anything temptingly flappy, and put on really old clothes to play with him for a few days (am I the only one with a drawer full of clothes for gardening and decorating in?!). Then if he grabs clothes it means game stops - you stand absolutely still. Offer him a toy instead, and if he takes it play a quick fun game of tug. Tugging on clothes = no attention and boring, picking up a toy = lots of lovely attention and play. We all tend to pay attention to our dogs when they are "naughty" - pulling at clothes, biting our feet, nipping bums, etc - and ignore them when they are calm and quiet. Then we wonder why they go on doing more and more of the "naughty" stuff...
 
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#31 ·
My training is going pretty well. Millie is now 17 weeks old and still very mouthy but she is getting better on the strength of her bites. She still opens her mouth anytime a hand goes near her which makes it very hard to socialize her(however she doesnt appear to have any fear of anyone or anything or any dog). One thing I have started in the past few days is touching her and clicking and treating. So far she still wants to open her mouth everytime I come near it however when she doesnt put her mouth on me I click really fast. There is no way I could increase duration yet because she still is figuring it out but I am hoping it will help. We started puppy classes last week and are going to go until we can get her canine good citizenship. She didn't care about anything in class one bit though, hopefully with practice and better treats next time she will do better. She only wanted to play with the other puppies which they didnt allow so I was a little bummed by that. I would say the best thing with working on her bites has been to use a very well rounded approach...no one thing is helping.

As far as the noise thing, in my experience I have only used noise for puppy yelping and crying when she is alone. She stopped in a day. All my husband did was hit a wall and she would stop. I know many people think that is scary to a puppy but for my particular puppy I think it was fine. You would probably have to consider how your puppy might react. My pup is FEARLESS. I have never once seen her get scared. Even when we took her home and she was away from her parents and littermates. I have never in my life had a puppy that didn't wine in her crate at 8 weeks old. One thing though I didnt let her see that it was us making the noise. It has not made her afraid to bark either, she will bark if she really needs something or if she is playing. Its making me think about trying it for biting.

This forum has made me feel better though, I now know how common this is for standards so I know I am not alone in working this out.
 
#33 ·
Lily was very mouthy at that age. She was hard on my clothes and my hands. Be patient (easier said than done, I know!). If you let yourself get angry or frustrated your pup will read that off you and get more worked up. Calmly, but firmly, end the play and let pup calm down. If your pup is high in prey drive, fetch is a really activating game. You might want to try games or activities that mostly use pack drive such as teaching tricks where you direct the dog to do quieter things, like "bang you're dead" or roll over rather than games where the pup is going to build up mental activation from running.

Asking thinking exercise will help tire the pup out, maybe not as much as running, but it is good to exercise their brains. Lily always sleeps well after a day with lots of training, even if it is for mostly cerebral activities like the directed retrieve or scent discrimination. She isn't very good at either of these yet, so I know they are really hard thinking work for her.
 
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#34 ·
Wow this is really great advice. It hadn't occurred to me that fetch could be activating prey instincts, but it makes sense.

My only concern about switching to teaching tricks is that he won't pay attention when outside - there are so many stimulations and even when we are playing fetch it's sometimes hard to keep him on target. However! Tricks = treats, and those are sure to get his attention. Thank you!
 
#35 ·
You have to make yourself more interesting than all the other stuff. This is a big ask for young puppies who have little experience with the outside world. If not in a securely fenced area keep attached to your pup by a leash. If you are unsure of your recall reliability use a long line or a flexi-leash. Don't use the flexi for regular walks, just for working on recall so you don't leave him a choice about coming back to you. I actually hate how most people use flexis when they are out walking with their dogs. Walks are a really good opportunity to connect to your dog. You don't have to insist on heeling, but you want your dog to be mindful of your presence.

So as not to hijack this thread away from the OP's question. It is useful to understand how to read what is driving your pup's current behavior. You can assess drive balance by reading body language. Prey drive will excite and encourage highly active, aggressive responses. Pack drive will encourage listening, respect of your boundaries, calmer responses. Leadership drives can be difficult to manage since a dog high in this area will challenge your position in the social order. Be firm with this dog, but not mean. Leaders assert their leadership without violence in wild social canid groups. Fear drives stress your dog and can make their behavior unpredictable. You should figure out why they are fearful and break them out of it. They cannot learn or give good responses if they are afraid. Be careful with poodles here. Many of them are very sensitive to harsh corrections and loud voices.

There is a good book by the Volhards. I loaned it away so I don't have the exact title necessarily, but it is something to the effect of "Canine Good Citizen: Every Dog Can Be One." In it there is a little quiz you can use to evaluate your dog's drives, not scientific per say but pretty accurate as far as my two go. You can order it on Amazon. Some of you who have younger puppies whose crazy moments mystify you may find this book useful.
 
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#36 ·
So I felt like we were doing really well and then we went to pet smart tonight to work on her puppy class homework with distractions and she meet two people. One was a random lady and Millie got really hyper and wiggled like crazy but she didn't bite. Then the next was a woman that worked at the store and when she was meeting Millie she said I'm about to lose a finger you need to go to puppy kindergarten. How can I just get her to meet people without freaking out and biting everyone? This has been so frustrating and I worry she will never chill out. She was acting like this in puppy class too and the trainer just said.... Such a poodle... I'm guessing she didnt say much bc it was the first class and didn't want to overwhelm us.

Oh and did anyone else have problems with their puppy not wanting the top of their head touched? And what have u asked people to do when meeting your puppy to warn them about the mouthing and not freaking them out at the same time
 
#38 ·
Some poodles can be head shy (which is what is happening with Millie not wanting people to touch her hear). I wouldn't worry about it unless it is a problem with your grooming. Many dogs don't really like being patted on the head. Think about it, would you like having giant people coming along and slapping you on top of your head all day? If you are going to allow people to pet Millie ask them not to touch her head. You can certainly ask people not to pet her. Just tell people who ask that she is in training and that you would prefer that they not pet her. If you do decide that you want people to be able to pet her you will have to work up to it. I would ask her for a sit before letting anybody approach. Working with someone she knows have them approach and extend the back of their hand for her to sniff. If she breaks the sit to do so, have the person turn away. Put Millie back on the sit and try again. No pets until she stays on the sit. That pet should be on her shoulder or side and should be a brush of the hand across her, not a downward patting (slap type) motion. If she gets through that without breaking the sit, mark it (click or good), treat and release. Repeat as needed until she will hold the sit for longer sessions of being petted. Once this is reliable you can do variations such as familiar person, unfamiliar or exciting place or safe familiar place with new person.

I used to take Lily to our local big chain pet stores with no plans to buy anything. We would do those exercises in aisles at first then eventually in the area by the front door. Initially I would have her on sit stays and let people pet her if she stayed. Then I would put her on stand stays and only let people pet her if she didn't move any feet. I always told the people who we came across who were willing to be part of it that she was in training and what the rules were for getting to pet her. She is actually very flirty with all people she meets and rarely dislikes new people (when she doesn't like a person I am always cautious about them myself, she has very good skills for reading people).

Do you have a dog club that gives obedience lessons near you? Pet store classes can be good or they can be worthless. The training of the people teaching them can be very variable. Unless a dog is at an extreme of a behavior spectrum I don't see that anyone could assess that a dog was dangerous in the brief time of a meet and greet. Also you shouldn't figure on puppy kindergarten being the answer to all of your training needs no matter what. Training is dynamic and ongoing, not something that is completed and then concretely set in stone. My dogs get training everyday in almost all that they do. It doesn't have to be a formal hour, but it does need to be ongoing. If Lily and Peeves are lurking near the cookie jar, I make them do drops, sits, come fronts and the like on signals to get the cookie. Sometimes that happens several times a day, sometimes only once. You don't have to plan to trial your dog in obedience, rally or anything else (although I have found it very enriching of my relationships with my dogs to do so).

Sorry for going on so long, but there was a lot of territory covered in your question. You need to work very hard at not letting yourself be frustrated. Millie probably senses your feelings better than you know them yourself. You can't afford to send confusing signals at this point (looking calm on outside, but worrying in your head is what I mean by this). That you are concerned enough to ask questions and for help means you will get there. Don't be discouraged and most of all don't be frustrated or angry. Our dogs know when we are lying to them.
 
#39 ·
Very good advice from Lily. Poppy dislikes hands over her head - even mine, if I am standing over her. I ask people to pet her chest instead, where she can see what they are doing. I've lost count of the number of children I've asked to imagine a hu-u-u-ge monster LOOOMING over them, to give them an idea of how she feels - all good educational opportunities!

I am not surprised that Millie forgets a lot of what you have taught her in the excitement of meeting other people and dogs - it is absolutely normal to have to go back to the beginning as the level of distraction increases. I would play lots of self control games at home - waiting for a few seconds for petting, a treat, to go outside, etc, etc - to help her build up the patience to play the games Lily describes when you are out and about. Not so long a wait that she gets frustrated, but just enough to teach her that really good things happen for patient, polite dogs.
 
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#40 ·
Thank you for all the wonderful advice.

Lily- I love the idea of letting her smell other people, but does anyone have any suggestions if when someone(even me) puts their hand in front of her to smell, she thinks its an invitation to mouth at them(and sometimes mouth too hard with the excitement). It scares people because she basically will lunge at them. I know she isn't being mean I just think she wants to play because she does get excited about meeting others, she is not protective or shy.

fjm- I'm glad you are not surprised....its really encouraging to know this is normal... Ive always had mixed breed puppies(and a Mini poodle who I got as an older puppy) my whole life from shelters or free ads in the paper...this is the first time I've had a hard time with my puppy meeting other people. I was not expecting it! It's good to know I was just lucky before and this is just another thing to deal with through puppyhood. (Millie was a breeze to housebreak though....the others were not!)

I will keep working with her, in her defense though, the person at petsmart who worked there was VERY excited around her, high pitched voice and so on. Of course she was going to go crazy. The other lady was calm and Millie did get very excited, but she didn't mouth at her.

I am just waiting for that calmness that everyone talks about with poodles, i'm sure we will get there one day. I know everyone says poodles are very mouthy, but honestly I don't want to my dog to mouth at people even in a nice way because I don't think a lot of people like having dog slober on them(me included!).
 
#41 ·
I would do as fjm suggests work up to it slowly. Work on the self control at home and build the duration or attention and impulse control before testing her in public. I wouldn't stop taking her places, but until you feel she is more reliable just tell people she is in training and that you would prefer that they not greet her hands on. There are still times when I deflect people that way. If I know one of the dogs is tired or maybe doesn't feel great I tend to keep people away from them.
 
#42 ·
Milliesmom, I am having the same problem with my spoo. How is it going now with the biting? My spoo just turned 12 weeks and my arms and feet are covered with bites. I have tried pretty much everything except the lunge and growl. Just wanted to see with you since you had the same problem if it has gotten better with you.
 
#43 ·
People, this is something that most healthy, happy puppies do.

What have you tried so far? You say you tried almost everything but what does that include? And for how long did you give the methods a chance? How consistent were you?

Why would you ever lunge and growl at your puppy? That's not a good method to try. Either you'll make your puppy afraid of you or you'll reinforce the biting by making it more fun.
 
#44 ·
Puppies are very excitable and the more flustered you get the more charged up they get. As msminnamouse said some of this is normal puppy stuff. By the time the pup is 12 weeks old that maternal correction thing is way in the past. Although it might work for some pups for some it will backfire and then you have made a new problem. I would stick with being very consistent about staying calm and asking the puppy for calming behaviors randomly. If you can redirect the pup to a sit or a down reliably they can't jump up and bite you at the same time. The key to it that I found is really truly being calm yourself. I know that is a big ask, to be relaxed when you feel like you are under assault. But until I learned to be really calm even in the face of crazy behavior I didn't make any progress on this front when Lily was little.
 
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#45 ·
I found the biggest change to training my dogs came when I stopped talking, and concentrated on communicating by body language, or simply shifting my weight. It was amazing how much better the dogs understood me when I stopped talking at them!
 
#46 ·
An update on Millie... her biting became pretty bad. The methods that you guys were giving me just were not working around strangers so I took her to a different trainer. I know a lot of people on this forum are completely against anything but positive training.

The trainer I went to uses many different methods of training....including A LOT of positive reinforcement. He put a very small prong collar on Millie with blunt edges. Now I know a lot of you disagree with this but Millies biting was not normal puppy behavior, she was becoming very sassy in her biting and would bite very hard. I tried the prong collar on myself first to get an idea of how it felt(I pulled as hard as I could), and I was fine with giving it a try. Anytime Millie came to bite me or anyone I would tell her "No", and I would pull very lightly on the leash. Now let me tell you Millies reaction....she was happy, her tail was wagging, and she politely shut her mouth and allowed people to pet her. I have zero indication that she is stopping because she is afraid of what might happen if she bites. Many people also say this it will make her more aggressive. I disagree, our trainer told us in the 35 years of dog training that he has not one dog has been hurt or become aggressive. The prong collar(like any tool) is not abusive in itself, it is only abusive if you use it wrong. I am not saying this method is for everyone, but for me, and Millie, it was a great method. Millie now actually knows what "no" means. Everyone always said not to say no to a dog because it sounds like a bark to them. Well I think dogs are smarter than that and once Millie understood that no meant no or she would get a tiny correction, she has been a way better dog. She also allows small children to pet her now.

After just one week, Millie is a happier dog. She WANTED to be pet by everyone and she just didn't know how to contain her excitement so she bit them. Now she understands that biting people is not ok and she is able to meet MANY more people.

I'm not saying this to start an argument and I know why many people disagree with me....dog training methods can cause very emotionally filled debates that end in judgement and name calling. I just wanted to share what worked for me and my dog in this situation.
 
#47 ·
I bought that collar for Lou, she likes it, calms her down. I never use it, because its hard to buckle, but when i did use it I pulled on it extremely gently and she listens, never seemed scared, she already was an amazing dog but she greeted people too excitedly, jumping, so thats why i bought it... Its almost like a "mom" gently putting her mouth around her neck to let her know that whatever she was doing was not ok. Some people abuse dogs, but i dont and I think if used very gently its ok (personal opinion)
 
#48 ·
I am glad you have had success. Yes there are people who use positive methods only and i absolutely respect and admire their work, but there are other tools and as long as you understand how to use them, the potential consequences of their misuse and are fair in how you apply their use then I don't see any problem. I have pinch collars for both of my dogs, but also only decided on their use after a careful discussion with a trainer who I trust (a person with decades of experience with poodles in obedience and conformation) and a demonstration on myself of what they felt like.
 
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#49 ·
I am not a fan of pronged collars but I am even less a fan of biting dogs. I am glad you are seeing an improvement in her behavior. I think you were wise to seek another trainer since you were not having success in curtailing the biting behavior with your former trainer. Hopefully as you continue to work with her you can phase the collar out.

DQNY I have not heard of the lunge and growl method; I actually thing the lunge part is a little over the top. I have had great success with a emotive yelp or an irritated growl however. It did not make my puppy frightened but he did get the message that I was annoyed. I did not have this issue with Swizzle but as a puppy my Aussie was very mouthy- my breeder warned me when he was a puppy that this is a trait with Aussies and she stressed how important this is to get a handle on it when they are still puppies. I very rarely used a growl, I found yelps worked great. You really have to sell it though and sound injured. Usually that would get the puppy snuggling and licking by way of an apology.
 
#50 ·
Why bother to ask for advice if you're not going to implement it?? There's no way you tried every suggestion in the short amount of time since you've been given it.

Hope your training choices don't come back to bite you in the backside. I've worked with countless cases of redirected aggression when people use these methods and tools. It's enough to break a soft dog but other dogs don't break and get reactive when the owner fails to keep issuing harsher and harsher corrections. Of course the guy you're paying to train your dog won't claim anything other than success or people wouldn't hire him.

Good luck with all that.
 
#51 ·
Lou... I'm glad that you had success as well. I agree that a prong collar could cause abuse. I was taught how to use it correctly and then I also spent quite a few hours of research on it. I actually found many trainers who use it and some that have saved thousands of dogs from shelters that would had been put to death because they were aggressive.

Lily... thank you. I agree that tools can be misused but as long as they are used correctly they can be a great help in training your dog. I did a lot of research on this forum about prong collars and found some pictures that someone put up of dogs with punctures in their necks. That was a very good example of their misuse. I am sure that kind of damage was caused by dog owners who tie their dog up with with one on or something terrible like that. I also admire positive only trainers however I also believe not one training method fits all dogs. For example, when I would redirect with a toy, my dog seemed to see it as a reward FOR biting.

CT... The prong collar is not something I use all the time. Maybe 15 minutes a day. Millie knows when it is on and when it is off but listens to me most of the time and rarely slips up and bites. When she does it isn't with any force.

Msminnamouse... it wasn't a bother to ask for advice. I was using all the methods and so was my husband. I asked about this when my girl was 15 weeks and she is now 19 weeks. That is four weeks and I keep track of my training. I worked 2-3 hours a day with lots of breaks and nap time in between . In my opinion that is a lot. Yes my trainer could have made that up however the hundreds of titles his clients win at akc trials and the numerous referrals have proved that he is trustworthy to me. I also did a lot of research on the proper use of prong collars. And found a trainer that has helped thousands of people with their dogs and rehomed aggressive dogs with the use of fair corrections. I wanted training I could use so that my dog could gain more freedom quickly. My dog spent a lot more time around new people and in public in the past week which she loves after just 6 days of 15 minute sessions than she could before because people were avoiding her. This gives us more time for clicker training and games. Thank you for your well wishes.
 
#52 ·
Positive reinforcement isn't comprised of one method.... Saving shelter dogs isn't a special feat being that the vast majority lack any training. What professional trainer hasn't saved countless rescues?

Four weeks of what was most likely poor training isn't a lot of time. Maybe you would have been better off with a toy robot dog since you only seem to want instant results with minimal effort.
 
#53 ·
You're correct that is isn't comprised of one method, if my comments made it sound like that, I did not intend them to. I am using positive training as a general term to encompass all the methods used.

I guess we disagree on the amount of training that is considered 'a lot'. I would like results in what I consider a reasonable amount of time(four weeks) for a behavior I feel is not acceptable in my dog. I do not want a robot dog as you say and while I feel that comment was rude and unjustified I am going to remember that you are behind a computer screen and probably not a rude person in general. However, I would like to defend my awesome dog and let you know that she is in fact, nothing like a robot. She knows when I want her to do something when I give her a command. When I say "break" or "ok" she knows that she may go about whatever she was doing. I never have or never will expect her to be perfect. I will however, expect her to have basic manners.

You were not there while I trained my dog, so while you may think I used poor training methods, you do not know how I trained. You also do not know how many dogs I have trained in the past and how well or, as you say, poor I was in my training. You were not there, so you really do not know.

I should also include that while you are right, training any shelter dog may not be a major feat, I wasn't clear in my statement. The dogs they were training were aggressive dogs, about to be put to death, many of them trainers had turned away, saying they were hopeless. You could say that all those trainers who turned them away were using poor methods, however I do not believe that every trainer who cannot help a dog is using poor methods. I do not believe every trainer can help every dog or that every dog can respond to one method of training.
 
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