"backyard" trainers - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!
   

Go Back   Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! > Poodle Training and Obedience > General Training and Obedience

General Training and Obedience All training and obedience questions, tips, articles go here

PoodleForum.com is the premier Poodle Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-29-2012, 05:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 31,620, Level: 100 Points: 31,620, Level: 100 Points: 31,620, Level: 100
Activity: 99.9% Activity: 99.9% Activity: 99.9%
Last Achievements
 
lily cd re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Names of dogs: Lily and Peeves (GSD)
Poodle Type: standard
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,098
Thanks: 3,900
Thanked 5,170 Times in 2,592 Posts
Default "backyard" trainers

There have been a couple of discussions about using private in home dog trainers recently. Someone referred to them, I thought very cleverly, as backyard trainers. What I am thinking about here is all of the people (of which there seem to be many in my area) who advertise in places like pet store bulletin boards and the local paper as professional dog trainers.

To my way of thinking a professional trainer is a person who has a documented set of certifications, an ability to demonstrate their qualifications by having titled dogs in obedience or other performance or working endeavors with their own dogs, or a graduate degree in animal behavior. While I am sure there are some good trainers who don't have these certifications, I also suspect that there are many such trainers who do more harm than good. I am interested in hearing your thoughts in this area.
__________________


Catherine
Lily AKC: CGC CD HIT CDX RN RA RE RAE RAE2 RAE3 RAE4 NA NAJ; APDT: RL-1; CPE: CL1-R, CL1-H, CL1-F, CL1-S, CL1
Peeves AKC: CGC BN RN RA
lily cd re is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to lily cd re For This Useful Post:
cavon (11-29-2012), liljaker (12-13-2012), MaryLynn (11-29-2012), MollyMuiMa (11-29-2012), sarahmurphy (11-29-2012)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-29-2012, 06:15 AM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 17,875, Level: 92 Points: 17,875, Level: 92 Points: 17,875, Level: 92
Activity: 90.3% Activity: 90.3% Activity: 90.3%
Last Achievements
 
Indiana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Names of dogs: Indy and Madeline
Poodle Type: Standard Poodles
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,251
Thanks: 1,175
Thanked 2,928 Times in 1,435 Posts
Default

Personally, I take all trainers with a healthy dose of caution, because just like interior decorators or alternative health therapies, the realm of possibilities is as great as the number of individuals who are involved in that industry. It's such a subjective activity! So I do take my dogs to trainers but I listen and learn and use what I already believe as a filter I guess I mean that, no matter what their qualifications are, they can still personalize their training methods to either be more beneficial or less, so I am careful.
Indiana is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Indiana For This Useful Post:
lily cd re (11-29-2012), MollyMuiMa (11-29-2012), sarahmurphy (11-29-2012)
Old 11-29-2012, 11:16 AM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 51,899, Level: 100 Points: 51,899, Level: 100 Points: 51,899, Level: 100
Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0%
Last Achievements
Award-Showcase
 
MollyMuiMa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Names of dogs: Molly
Poodle Type: MPooX
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 5,597
Thanks: 7,740
Thanked 7,554 Times in 3,457 Posts
Default

I am 62 yrs old and can say that there has always been a dog in my life . That being said, I've seen just about every method of dog training out there! It's gone from Swatting with newspaper, to choke chains, to rubbing noses in pee, electric collars, and Alpha Dog rolls, to treat & praise! There are so many modes and methods people use, that it's no wonder so many dogs have problems ! I've come to learn that each dog requires something different in the way they learn. So if I were to have to hire a trainer I would want to watch him in action (unobserved if possible) before I entrusted my animal to them. I would definately look for someone who 'thinks' like a dog and could tell me 'why' I have a problem, not just supress it!
MollyMuiMa is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MollyMuiMa For This Useful Post:
julietcr1 (12-13-2012), lily cd re (11-29-2012), sarahmurphy (11-29-2012)
Old 11-29-2012, 11:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 4,115, Level: 43 Points: 4,115, Level: 43 Points: 4,115, Level: 43
Activity: 12.6% Activity: 12.6% Activity: 12.6%
Last Achievements
 
Specman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Names of dogs: Max, Gigi
Poodle Type: Miniature, Mixed Breed
Location: Orland Park, Illinois
Posts: 370
Thanks: 177
Thanked 312 Times in 165 Posts
Default

This is from another site but may be of help:

"Look for a Dog Trainer with Independent Credentialing. Though educational possibilities are all over the map and there are no licensing requirements, there is one independent national credentialing program. It’s called the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers, and its website has a search function to enable you to find a nearby trainer.
Good trainers educate themselves and use the modern, reward-based methods that scientists agree work best.

For manners trainers, the council offers a single level of certification, “Certified Professional Dog Trainer—Knowledge Assessed.” (A second level is planned, to assess practical skills.) The holder of a CPDT-KA has to have completed 300 hours as the lead or solo trainer in classes or in private work. She must provide references from a veterinarian, a client, and another CPDT-KA. And she needs to pass a 250-question exam. Trainers are required to sign a code of ethics and to recertify every three years, either by submitting proof of continuing education, or by re-taking the exam.

This is a good start, but it’s a floor, not a ceiling. Those 300 hours may or may not mean much, since the actual quality of the teaching done isn’t assessed. The written test isn’t terribly challenging. And someone can give the right answers but still favor outdated, coercive methods in real life. All of that having been said, at least the person who holds a CPDT-KA has presented their credentials for independent assessment, and that counts for something."
Specman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Specman For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (11-30-2012), LegalEagle (11-30-2012), MollyMuiMa (11-29-2012), msminnamouse (12-12-2012)
Old 12-12-2012, 07:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
msminnamouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Ginger (my service dog) and Angel
Poodle Type: Standard, Mini
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 230
Thanked 345 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Quote:
To my way of thinking a professional trainer is a person who has a documented set of certifications, an ability to demonstrate their qualifications by having titled dogs in obedience or other performance or working endeavors with their own dogs, or a graduate degree in animal behavior. While I am sure there are some good trainers who don't have these certifications, I also suspect that there are many such trainers who do more harm than good. I am interested in hearing your thoughts in this area.
I think y'all know where I stand b/c I think I used the backyard dog trainer term!

Like dog trainers themselves, the educations and certifications are also unregulated. It's just a grab bag, really. Like dog trainers, some educations and some certifications are better than others. It all really comes down to researching and going with what you like.

You get a dime a dozen professional trainers graduating out of ABC who are just clueless and probably don't know more than most well informed pet owners. Petco/Petsmart trainers can be even worse. Or they can be great. You can also get people with no formal education at all but dedicate a lot of their time to reading peer reviewed studies and journals, attending seminars, going to workshops, studying texts, taking advantage of professional forums, etc. It really depends on where you get your info from, if you continue your education, and your ethics, AND your experience.

Experience is NOT everything no matter how much some people would like to convince you otherwise. These are the people who usually insist that they don't need no books tellin' them what to do because they just have a nat-o-ral way with dogs and they've been doing it for X amount of years before you were even born. And that no two dogs are alike so one way (even though it's not all cookie tossing and ignoring and allowing bad behavior like some would have you believe) doesn't work for every dog so almost anything can be justified if a dog is "stubborn" enough. It's simply not as simple as that. It's so easy to just suppress things without ever uncovering why they're actually happening and how to actually treat the CAUSE. Like I've said before, it's like slapping a bandaid on a festering wound and hoping for the best. Makes no sense and is patently dangerous for all involved.

You know what? Before I knew much, I could really only manage to accomplish something through molding, which is force. Pushing a dog's tush down to teach sit. Picking up their paw to teach shake. Etc. The more and more I learn, the more I leave molding behind. A whole new world is opened where nothing can't be accomplished through shaping, capturing and luring. And if luring doesn't work, shaping and capturing does. And if one way of capturing or shaping doesn't, there are countless other shaping and capturing methods to get the behaviors you want. It's not a one trick pony for small, easy dogs. This is the way it is, studies show that the more education people receive, the less they have to resort to brute, base force. And I'm happy because dogs work with me, not against me. Learning is a big, fun game, a puzzle to work out. It's not a battle.

There is ethology at work here with our dogs. Or as other people incorrectly refer to it, "dog psychology". But either term you use, there is behavioral science at work here. It is a science. What science doesn't benefit from experience AS WELL as knowledge? How can any one person know everything? You can't. That's why a good dog trainer should always be seeking to learn more and more from as many sources as possible. Of course you can always get the blind leading the blind, so that's where your research of your trainer's qualifications come in handy. Did they attend a seminar given by a reputable person in the field or did they watch a television show and presume to call themself another expert (human pack leader leading pack leaders...)? Do the dogs depicted on their website look happy and relaxed or do they look frantic like they're worrying about what consequence may befall them next?

And even demo dogs have off days. If this is so, how do they handle it? Do they bully the dog into compliance or do they explain why it's happening and show how to remedy it so the dog wants to willingly work with them? Robotic dogs are usually a good sign that something's not right with their methods. I personally want a dog, not a robot. Too many people want robots though. I don't understand why and I find it sad.

I also find the legion of backyard dog trainers sad because they'll suppress whatever problem ails your dog or ruin your dog trying (or succeeding).

Dog nips children's heels when they run around screaming. Squirt dog with water. Dog barks at bigger dogs on leash. Administer collar pops. Dog gets defensive at dog park. Parade dog back and forth in the park and restrain him while other dogs sniff him and give a cookie when he gives up and stops struggling. Dog pulls on leash so put on a choke/prong/shock to correct him for what he isn't born knowing. Sad. Sad. Sad.
__________________
msminnamouse is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to msminnamouse For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (12-13-2012), liljaker (12-13-2012)
Old 12-13-2012, 06:06 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 31,620, Level: 100 Points: 31,620, Level: 100 Points: 31,620, Level: 100
Activity: 99.9% Activity: 99.9% Activity: 99.9%
Last Achievements
 
lily cd re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Names of dogs: Lily and Peeves (GSD)
Poodle Type: standard
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,098
Thanks: 3,900
Thanked 5,170 Times in 2,592 Posts
Default

Yes msminnamouse you were the one who used the term backyard trainer. I hope you don't mind that I borrowed the term. I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. I think it is a really important issue.

There are so many dogs that end up at breed rescues or in shelters that really didn't need to end up going down that road if only their original owners did right by them when they were puppies. I had the wonderful opportunity to attend Ian Dunbar's science based dog training seminar about 2 years ago. He has so much terrific insight, based in the science of dog behavior, that if more broadly applied could alleviate much of the shelter problem. He strongly is an advocate of getting to the point where we don't need shelters or rescue groups because we do better more broadly with puppies.

I do know a couple of people who are CPDT-KA trainers. I haven't used them (don't need a trainer myself, and that isn't why I started this thread), but I have taken class at my obedience club with them (as fellow "students") and I also know a few people who take privates with one of them for obedience competition training. I find both of them to be really awesome. I can imagine that they aren't all as good as these folks though.

It is so frustrating that it is such a mixed bag in terms of the quality of what people think is good training for their dogs. We took a puppy class at PetSmart and I thought the instructor for that class was very good (I watched her before I signed up for her class), but I've also seen some people with "pet store trained" dogs that were terrible. I've also heard some appalling things from people who paid lots of money to have people come to their homes to train their dogs.

How will we be able to make this better?
__________________


Catherine
Lily AKC: CGC CD HIT CDX RN RA RE RAE RAE2 RAE3 RAE4 NA NAJ; APDT: RL-1; CPE: CL1-R, CL1-H, CL1-F, CL1-S, CL1
Peeves AKC: CGC BN RN RA
lily cd re is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lily cd re For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (12-13-2012), liljaker (12-13-2012)
Old 12-13-2012, 08:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 4,505, Level: 45 Points: 4,505, Level: 45 Points: 4,505, Level: 45
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
MaryLynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Names of dogs: Gryphon and Bruce
Poodle Type: Standard
Location: Ontario
Posts: 628
Thanks: 471
Thanked 804 Times in 380 Posts
Default

I think right now we're coming into an important era for pedagogy, and I think the best steps forward with making sure our dogs get the right education (and ourselves) would be in creating awareness that not all training is created equal, and that not every type of training will suit a certain individual or their dog. We tend to treat thing, even our children, based off of whatever is the most popular method at the time, and then we move onto the next-we need to stop doing this. I think evolution in teaching is very important, but I think more importantly people need to realize that different individuals respond better than others to different types of teaching. I think this goes for dogs, too even though most dog training seems to actually be for the owners.

I think we need more people who are willing to work in the industry, without treating it like an industry. I think that services tend to arise to meet the demand of a new market.

If there was a campaign of awareness, and people "demanded" more formal and quantitative credentials for their dog trainers then that's what companies, and small businesses would start to provide the framework for it.

Right now everything is still treated as if pet owners are cash cows (and face it, we really are), when it should be approached with more mindfulness.
MaryLynn is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MaryLynn For This Useful Post:
LauraRose (12-30-2012), lily cd re (12-13-2012)
Old 12-14-2012, 09:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
msminnamouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Ginger (my service dog) and Angel
Poodle Type: Standard, Mini
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 230
Thanked 345 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Quote:
Yes msminnamouse you were the one who used the term backyard trainer. I hope you don't mind that I borrowed the term. I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. I think it is a really important issue.
Nope, I don't mind at all.

What I really don't understand are people paying for advice that they could easily have come up with themselves. Force comes easily, you don't really need any further knowledge to apply it. Do you really need to pay someone else to tell you to put a choke or prong collar on a dog that pulls? Or a shock collar on a dog to shock them? Does it take lessons to be able to press a button on a remote control? Could people not figure out for themselves to push a dog's butt down into a sit when they want the dog to sit?

This is what I'm really talking about. You don't need to know anything to do this kind of stuff, yet people are getting paid for giving lessons on it.

Figuring out how to get a dog to walk by your side without any physical force takes some thought. Getting a dog to stop being scared of something and thus, to stop reactive barking, takes some thought too. I'd pay for this kind of advice.

It's kind of like, parents don't pay for spanking lessons. Apply the hand to the backside when the child misbehaves. Doesn't take any instruction or real thought. Psychoanalysis and schooling, takes instruction and thought.
__________________
msminnamouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 09:26 AM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
msminnamouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Ginger (my service dog) and Angel
Poodle Type: Standard, Mini
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 230
Thanked 345 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Quote:
I think more importantly people need to realize that different individuals respond better than others to different types of teaching. I think this goes for dogs, too even though most dog training seems to actually be for the owners.
That's the thing I keep hearing and yes, it's true. But it doesn't justify the bullying methods that some use. Every sentient creatures essentially learns through a process of reward and consequences. Consequences don't have to be physical in nature or even scary to achieve learning and results. Even just positive reinforcement alone encompasses a huge array of methods. It's not all tossing cookies and ignoring and allowing bad behavior, which seems to be a common misconception. It doesn't just work for little, easy dogs, which also seems to be a misconception. It works from great danes down to chihuahuas. It works from troubled dogs down to happy, go lucky puppies. Dogs, especially, are VERY receptive to it because dogs do what works for them.
__________________
msminnamouse is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to msminnamouse For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (12-14-2012)
Old 12-14-2012, 03:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 31,620, Level: 100 Points: 31,620, Level: 100 Points: 31,620, Level: 100
Activity: 99.9% Activity: 99.9% Activity: 99.9%
Last Achievements
 
lily cd re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Names of dogs: Lily and Peeves (GSD)
Poodle Type: standard
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,098
Thanks: 3,900
Thanked 5,170 Times in 2,592 Posts
Default

I agree that there are many positive training methods and it takes creative thinking to accomplish the goal you are working toward. There are also negative reinforcements that aren't physical and actually make the dog think and learn. Stopping access to something the dog wants to redirect their behavior would be an example.

I agree that it is very perplexing that people are so willing to pay for a trainer rather than trying to work with their dogs themselves. What do they think is going to happen when the trainer leaves? It is very unfortunate that despite spending tons of money so many people have dogs that are so unmanageable that they end up rehoming them.
__________________


Catherine
Lily AKC: CGC CD HIT CDX RN RA RE RAE RAE2 RAE3 RAE4 NA NAJ; APDT: RL-1; CPE: CL1-R, CL1-H, CL1-F, CL1-S, CL1
Peeves AKC: CGC BN RN RA
lily cd re is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lily cd re For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (12-14-2012)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A CALL FOR ACTION "Reign of Terror" of the Humane Society of the U.S. (HSUS) Apres Argent Poodle Talk 33 05-18-2014 05:36 PM
Standard Poodle Pedigree "Game" ,super quick and easy Yaddaluvpoodles Poodle Talk 45 01-22-2013 08:23 AM
"WARNING GRAPHIC "This is the most appauling video of animal abuse I have witness ! roxy25 General Off-Topic Chat 15 11-12-2012 08:04 AM
Grooming Expo in Ottawa Ontario Canada - "THE SHOW" at the Capital *heather* Poodle Grooming 0 08-04-2010 03:47 AM
Frozen Tundra-- well actually the "sandy" of Lake Michigan in Chicago... brrr` Sparkle&Spunk Poodle Pictures 12 02-09-2010 05:28 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:39 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
All (C) PoodleForum.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com